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  #11  
Old 01-23-2011, 12:53 PM
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JDUtah JDUtah is offline
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Barry,
While there is more I would expand about on the article I will currently keep my thoughts to just two here.

1-Humus depletion, etc... The problem isn't necessarily that they break down the OM so fast it doesn't have time to turn into Humus, it is that there isn't a balanced carbon input anymore and, over time, the humus (which contains/stores carbon & is used as a food source) runs out. Think of it like this. Microbes are eating a meal. They like, actually they need, a balanced meal with meat, bread, and veggies. When you fertilize with synthetic ferts you provide the veggies, but not the bread. Thus, they eat the veggies, but to be balanced, they also eat whatever bread is already in the soil. Eventually, all that is left in the soil are the veggies, and not enough bread or meat. Because all you are adding are the veggies.

2-N-fixing bacteria... Why/how do the N-fixing bacteria get "out competed"? Hint: I don't believe that they do other than the fact they they too, can run out of "bread". Second hint: Why do they fix N in the first place?

I don't know why this is a new perspective for you. I have been stating this angle to the people of this forum since my salt fertilizer doesn't kill microbes (it's actually food) thread on 08-18-2008.
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  #12  
Old 01-23-2011, 09:00 PM
Tim Wilson Tim Wilson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phasthound View Post
For those who have not read this link, it also states that synthetic N over time depletes soil organic carbon and soil N due to the increase of certain microbial activity that breaks down organic matter so fast it prevents humus from forming. These microbes also out compete N fixing bacteria in the soil.

This is a new perspective to me. Tim, Kiril do you have any info on this conclusion?
Barry, I believe this is similar to what occurs when N is locked up when there is excessive carbon mixed into the soil (e.g woody bits) Their estimates of N from N fixers sounds high for turf (not a legume). I don't have a lot of time but I'll have a look later. It is though, yet another case for not using synthetics as they upset the natural balance.
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  #13  
Old 01-24-2011, 06:16 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDUtah View Post
Actually, a soils CEC is also a factor to consider while evaluating leach potential. Of course SOM affects this, but you must consider CEC, and amount of moisture, porosity of soil, etc before you can assume any % leach potential.
Number 2 agrees with you...
Number 4 is addressed in the article and quite an eyeopener for the too much irrigation and too much fertilizer crowd...
"In the first few months after
application the four most likely fates for the fertilizer are:
1. It may be taken up by the crop, as intended.
2. It may become incorporated in the soilís organic matter, where it will remain
unless it is remobilized by the bacteria and other organisms in the soil.
3. It may be leached out of the soil.
4. It may be denitrified. This happens when microbes hungry for oxygen utilize..."
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
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  #14  
Old 01-24-2011, 08:19 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDUtah View Post
1-Humus depletion, etc... The problem isn't necessarily that they break down the OM so fast it doesn't have time to turn into Humus, it is that there isn't a balanced carbon input anymore and, over time, the humus (which contains/stores carbon & is used as a food source) runs out.
Wrong JD. Did you read the published study?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JDUtah View Post
2-N-fixing bacteria... Why/how do the N-fixing bacteria get "out competed"? Hint: I don't believe that they do other than the fact they they too, can run out of "bread".
You don't believe Diazotrophs can be out competed by other microbes? Why not .... and references are required in your reply.
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  #15  
Old 01-24-2011, 01:29 PM
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JDUtah JDUtah is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
and references are required in your reply.
Actually Kiril, I live in America, you know, the land of free speech, which means nothing is required in my reply.

In all reality though, let's stop having "peers" think for us and do some thinking on our own.

Why do Diazotrophs fix N?

Oh, but before that, if you actually read what I said, you would realize I never said that they couldn't be out competed.

Last edited by JDUtah; 01-24-2011 at 01:35 PM.
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  #16  
Old 01-24-2011, 01:34 PM
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JDUtah JDUtah is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
Wrong JD. Did you read the published study?
Actually Kiril, it wasn't a published study. It was an article written referencing a few published studies. Some of the information was from the studies and some was from the authors un-investigated opinion. Again, let's work on our reading comprehension shall we?

But I shall respond with a question. Tell me Kiril, how exactly is time a factor in the "depletion" of humus as this "article" suggests? What natural and biological processes occur to cause this gap? Isn't that part of what Barry was asking anyhow? Why argue with me when you can hold a civilized conversation with him? I'm not that fun am I?
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  #17  
Old 01-24-2011, 03:54 PM
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fl-landscapes fl-landscapes is offline
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hey ax here is wikepedias document on the Nitrogen cycle, I dont know if it is what you are looking for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_cycle
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  #18  
Old 01-24-2011, 06:38 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDUtah View Post
Actually Kiril, it wasn't a published study. It was an article written referencing a few published studies
Exactly! Read the referenced studies before you start commenting on papers that discuss them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JDUtah View Post
But I shall respond with a question. Tell me Kiril, how exactly is time a factor in the "depletion" of humus as this "article" suggests? What natural and biological processes occur to cause this gap? Isn't that part of what Barry was asking anyhow? Why argue with me when you can hold a civilized conversation with him? I'm not that fun am I?
See above reply, both of you.
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  #19  
Old 01-24-2011, 07:35 PM
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phasthound phasthound is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
Exactly! Read the referenced studies before you start commenting on papers that discuss them.



See above reply, both of you.
How does one access them without having to pay for them? And how does a lay person make sense of scientific jargon?
I can do without your rolling of the eyes.
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  #20  
Old 01-24-2011, 09:46 PM
ICT Bill ICT Bill is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phasthound View Post
How does one access them without having to pay for them? And how does a lay person make sense of scientific jargon?
I can do without your rolling of the eyes.
EXACTLY
as a lay person, compared to the folks that wrote those papers in their extremely narrow perspective of exactly what they needed to regurgitate in order to meet their goals for a grant, how do you understand the narrow perspective and grow it into a positive for your business to grow customers and stay profitable?

to constantly say "read the papers" is ludicrous, not only do they not have the background to understand the science but they typically do not have the time as they are raising families and working to pay bills

The better tract is to helpfully explain

apologies if I spoke down to anyone, it is just something I have been wanting to say for a while
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