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  #21  
Old 02-08-2011, 10:31 AM
mrusk mrusk is offline
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Location: northern jersey
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I hate to say it but i'd say if you took 100 random hardscapers and had 50 install a patio on concrete base and 50 install a patio on a gravel base, i'd bet money the ones on concrete would last longer.


WHY?

Because almost no one uses fabric. No one understands soil types. No one uses enough base. No one compacts enough.

Its a shame that people cant figure out the simple concepts of building a paver patio. It isn't rocket science.
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  #22  
Old 02-08-2011, 10:31 AM
turner_landscaping turner_landscaping is offline
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Doesnt sound like great customer service to me.. Plus u can forget about repeat business or word of mouth. Customers want a product that doesnt fall apart 6 months later and I would bet your contract would get tossed out in court if the home owner pushed the issue. I had a customer who just had a stamped concrete patio put down by another contractor it cracked in several places. Needless to say the contractor's contract was tossed out n court and they lost. Besides why would want the negative response of work to hurt your business? Thus the reason we install pavers not concrete.
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  #23  
Old 02-08-2011, 10:44 AM
Joe Cement Joe Cement is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrusk View Post
I hate to say it but i'd say if you took 100 random hardscapers and had 50 install a patio on concrete base and 50 install a patio on a gravel base, i'd bet money the ones on concrete would last longer.


WHY?

Because almost no one uses fabric. No one understands soil types. No one uses enough base. No one compacts enough.

Its a shame that people cant figure out the simple concepts of building a paver patio. It isn't rocket science.
I can see you are one of the guys that does understand theses concepts. I agree with you I go back to jobs my father did 20 years ago with high traffic and there's no depressions or nothing
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  #24  
Old 02-08-2011, 10:49 AM
Joe Cement Joe Cement is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turner_landscaping View Post
Doesnt sound like great customer service to me.. Plus u can forget about repeat business or word of mouth. Customers want a product that doesnt fall apart 6 months later and I would bet your contract would get tossed out in court if the home owner pushed the issue. I had a customer who just had a stamped concrete patio put down by another contractor it cracked in several places. Needless to say the contractor's contract was tossed out n court and they lost. Besides why would want the negative response of work to hurt your business? Thus the reason we install pavers not concrete.
I don't know what kind of work you are doing but seems like you know about getting sued. Fortunately if you have any idea about concrete you will know you can't keep it from cracking. As far as lawsuits go never happened. You can't please everyone. If your in business to make money and your going to tell me every customer of yours was always 100 percent satisfied you must not be making $
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  #25  
Old 02-08-2011, 10:58 AM
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SVA_Concrete SVA_Concrete is offline
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Originally Posted by DVS Hardscaper View Post
Oh I believe most folks do understand gravity.
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proved my point exactly....

Gravity has nothing to do with the majority of cracks in concrete.

evaporation does.

similar to how wood cracks when it drys out, and your hands crack when they dry out.

i can go into detail but i dont think that it matters to many reading this.



and for the love of pete... stop calling them "Expansion Joints" concrete will never expand larger than the original state in which it was placed. the correct term for that type of joint is "Isolation Joint"
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  #26  
Old 02-08-2011, 11:06 AM
Joe Cement Joe Cement is offline
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Originally Posted by SVA_Concrete View Post
proved my point exactly....

Gravity has nothing to do with the majority of cracks in concrete.

evaporation does.

similar to how wood cracks when it drys out, and your hands crack when they dry out.

i can go into detail but i dont think that it matters to many reading this.



and for the love of pete... stop calling them "Expansion Joints" concrete will never expand larger than the original state in which it was placed. the correct term for that type of joint is "Isolation Joint"
One ? When you go to your supplier and order "Isolation Joints" Do you order expansion joints or isolation joints.
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  #27  
Old 02-08-2011, 11:38 AM
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SVA_Concrete SVA_Concrete is offline
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Originally Posted by Joe Cement View Post
One ? When you go to your supplier and order "Isolation Joints" Do you order expansion joints or isolation joints.
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I order "a 50 foot roll of 1/2 inch strip joint".

once the slab is complete tear off the top 1/2" and seal with NP-1


the purpose of "Expansion Joint" is to allow 2 independent masonry structures to stay independent from one another. isolate them in other words.

- this joint helps to prevent cracking from heaving where a slab is adjacent to masonry structure that is bearing below the frost line.


control joints on the other hand are either struck in while the concrete is still plastic; or sawed into the slab within 6 hrs of finishing.

- this joint should be installed every 8 to 10 feet on center each way in a 3.5 to 4" slab to allow a straight line (fault line) for the concrete to crack along during the evaporation and shrinking process.


construction joints these are typically key way forms (metal with a deformed side to allow slab interlock) a construction joint can also be a form with dowels extending through.

- this is to connect slabs between pours, or allow a pour stop for a large continuous pour (most recommend having a pour stop at 50 to 100 foot intervals)
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  #28  
Old 02-08-2011, 11:54 AM
Joe Cement Joe Cement is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SVA_Concrete View Post
I order "a 50 foot roll of 1/2 inch strip joint".

once the slab is complete tear off the top 1/2" and seal with NP-1


the purpose of "Expansion Joint" is to allow 2 independent masonry structures to stay independent from one another. isolate them in other words.

- this joint helps to prevent cracking from heaving where a slab is adjacent to masonry structure that is bearing below the frost line.


control joints on the other hand are either struck in while the concrete is still plastic; or sawed into the slab within 6 hrs of finishing.

- this joint should be installed every 8 to 10 feet on center each way in a 3.5 to 4" slab to allow a straight line (fault line) for the concrete to crack along during the evaporation and shrinking process.


construction joints these are typically key way forms (metal with a deformed side to allow slab interlock) a construction joint can also be a form with dowels extending through.

- this is to connect slabs between pours, or allow a pour stop for a large continuous pour (most recommend having a pour stop at 50 to 100 foot intervals)
SVA I never have heard of it being bought on a roll. Ill have to look into it. We use bituminious expansion joints and buy plastic caps that come 10' long which slide over the joint. Following day rip off cap and use Sika self leveling horizontal caulk.
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  #29  
Old 02-08-2011, 04:13 PM
OutdoorCreations OutdoorCreations is offline
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So when you excavate are you taking out a total of 10 5/8"? 4" for 2A, 4" for poured concrete and 2 5/8" for the paver.

I like the idea of pouring concrete and laying the pavers on top, but won't this add cost to the job? I see that it could be less labor involved in leveling everything with sand, but it would seem to add cost by excavating more soil.

?????
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  #30  
Old 02-08-2011, 04:31 PM
Joe Cement Joe Cement is offline
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Originally Posted by OutdoorCreations View Post
So when you excavate are you taking out a total of 10 5/8"? 4" for 2A, 4" for poured concrete and 2 5/8" for the paver.

I like the idea of pouring concrete and laying the pavers on top, but won't this add cost to the job? I see that it could be less labor involved in leveling everything with sand, but it would seem to add cost by excavating more soil.

?????
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