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  #41  
Old 02-08-2011, 11:25 PM
joes169 joes169 is offline
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Originally Posted by Swampy View Post
I'm sorry but you can't sell me on using concrete underneath a patio. I've seen the winter aftermath on concrete and it doesn't settle back in place after a thaw.
I'm a concrete and masonry contractor, not too far from where you're at, and I pour a few thousands yards of exterior flatwork a year. I'd estimate that less than 2% of concrete we put in heaves in winter, and of that small amount, I've never seen one slab that didn't return back down in spring.
Its called a tripper and will settle as much as 2inches above where it was poured.
So does it settle or does it heave? If it settles, you deal with the situation the same way you would with a gravel base.
So if I lay pavers over your 4inch base my pavers will be upwards of 2inches above the others, and if I was a customer wanting that paver "look" patio and my contractor was pouring a concrete base, why not just stamp the pad and be done with it.
Until you've actually had to do the process, you probably won't understand the labor & material difference between the two processes. Not to mention, some discriminating customers have no interest in faux concrete, they just don't buy the appearance.
In my area everything heavies and shifts around, we have a heavy clay soil with pockets of loam. Dry lay will heave as like concrete, This is my selling point of a dry lay over poured concrete, but dry lay is repairable as concrete patterns never match up or dyed color concrete never looks or fades correctly.
Same soil here, and after 12 years in business in a small town, I still have as much work as I can handle and a great reputation. You'd be amazed at what kind of products are available for the repair of deco. concrete now-a-days as well.
With repair as well, both can not stand the ultimate test of using road salt on them. Though pavers offer better drainage than concrete does, as its all heaved and thrown out of pitch. Ice forms from and further damages slabs, if you'd like a example I invite you to drive Downtown Waukesha WI. Also the salts will rust your rebar and mesh, as steel rusts it expands thus deterating concrete internally,
I can't tell you how many times I've read this mis-leading myth on the web already. Mild steel exposed to corrosive de-icers is not prone to rusting, corrosion, or OXIDATION unless OXYGEN is available. I've seen thousands of failed jobs in my career, and not one that was destroyed by rusty steel that was placed in it's proper location. As a matter of fact, the vast majority of steel in old concrete we demo is in BETTER condition than the new steel we can buy today.
as road salt (NaCl) doesn't chemically react to water just lowering the freezing point will abosrb into pourous concrete, refreeze and "pit" the surface.
It's called "air-entrainment", and it's been around for decades. It gives moisture room to expand when it freezes.
Not to mention exposied aggerate concrete is hell on snow shovels, snow blower paddles, and cutting edges.

Lastly I have not found a concrete sub contractor that will warrenty his work either.

I'll end on a question though. Why does concrete explode during the summer? Heat build up?
Concrete doesn't explode in the summer. There are cases were the entire assembly can heave in the summer due to excessive heat though. It's as simple as this: 200 feet of highway is cut into 10-20' squares. In the joints crud/debris/dirt collects, and when the concrete returns to it's maximum plastic size, it heaves as the dirt filled joints allow for no expansion. Even this is a rarity considering there's millions of yards of concrete roads out there.
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  #42  
Old 02-08-2011, 11:33 PM
Joe Cement Joe Cement is offline
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Originally Posted by joes169 View Post
Concrete doesn't explode in the summer. There are cases were the entire assembly can heave in the summer due to excessive heat though. It's as simple as this: 200 feet of highway is cut into 10-20' squares. In the joints crud/debris/dirt collects, and when the concrete returns to it's maximum plastic size, it heaves as the dirt filled joints allow for no expansion. Even this is a rarity considering there's millions of yards of concrete roads out there.
Iam glad you brought up the point about the reinforcement failing due to the salts and rust. I seen that wrote and I had to laugh about that. I m with u on the percentage that does heave.
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  #43  
Old 02-08-2011, 11:38 PM
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SVA_Concrete SVA_Concrete is offline
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Originally Posted by joes169 View Post
Concrete doesn't explode in the summer. There are cases were the entire assembly can heave in the summer due to excessive heat though. It's as simple as this: 200 feet of highway is cut into 10-20' squares. In the joints crud/debris/dirt collects, and when the concrete returns to it's maximum plastic size, it heaves as the dirt filled joints allow for no expansion. Even this is a rarity considering there's millions of yards of concrete roads out there.

well said, i should have added this to my post about expansion: in an EXTREME situation (concrete poured in cold weather at a low slump with a water reducer, or other special considerations and then exposed to excessive heat) concrete will expand beyond its initial plastic state. but in our southern virginia 100 degree summers i have only seen it happen once that i can remember.

in fact i was working in a 1 million square foot warehouse with an internal temperature of 120 degrees this past summer and not a single piece of 50 year old concrete exploded

another good point you touched on is the corrosion of steel, many argue steel rots after a few years of being in the slab, not true. in that same 50 year old warehouse we worked in this summer, pulled out w2.0 wire that was in better shape than the supply yards have.

the bridges around here have epoxy coated steel in them due to the high concentration of salt in the air and in the water that the pilings are bearing in. however that is a far cry from any patio situation.
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  #44  
Old 02-09-2011, 12:31 AM
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Swampy Swampy is offline
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Sorry if its to simple to understand, in fact I've researched a little to find that rebar is coated to prevent corrision from happening but depending on the contractor if they fail to use the proper materials IT CAN AND WILL HAPPEN, steel rusts which is a fact and yes oxygen can be present in concrete. Just cause you seal it doesn't mean that its air tight. In all the information I've seen is that this coating rated for mild exposures of corrosive materials. We've all seen this on trucks, a little flake in the paint is missing gone untreated for a number of years and now you have a hole in your cab. Give rust a inch and it will take a mile, this is no web based myth.

Quote:
Rust requires far more space than unrusted iron. Thus, as the steel reinforcing bars continue to corrode and flake, the rust that is produced expands and pushes for space. This creates great outward pressure at the micro levels. As rusting continues, these 'expansive' forces result in stresses that build up and increase over a period of time, causing cracking, and later, spalling of the surrounding concrete.
- http://gloprotek.com/Glo-Protek-Reba...ctive-Coat.asp

As for saying concrete will return to it intended position after heaving. Maybe on your sites but nothing can convince me that North ave or Summit in Waukesha is a smooth concrete road, I drive them everyday and everyday I feel like I'm picking my teeth out of the steering wheel from bouncing around so much. Heck take a drive down Capital, do mind the 74 over pass trucks just love slamming into it, or not to mention Silver Spring in Milwaukee before they resurfaced it. But it doesn't help when a county truck with a plow slams into a heave piece of concrete creating a bigger pothole. If fact not just road ways but sidewalks as well, to give another example look at the walks at MATC north campus, they heaved or settled and stayed heaved or settled, though their problem may have been that each section is around 12x12ft.

I'm not trying to argue with y'all, it isn't my intent and I don't mean to point the imaginary finger towards you. Each concrete contractor is different and each one builds/repairs differently, and it shows. I've seen some sloppy repairs, again this is on the contractor.

Thank you for clearing up the "exploding" concrete, I heard it happen actually (driving down Sunset in Waukesha sounded like a Shotgun blast behind me, came back down sunset in the other direction with a squad blocking traffic and a pile of busted concrete in front of the crusier)
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  #45  
Old 02-09-2011, 12:52 AM
MexicanAmerican1 MexicanAmerican1 is offline
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I don't understand either. Where I am, we experiense many, many freeze/thaw cycles. Concrete install warantees around here are at bes a joke, but usually non-existent and most of the concrete is cracked after a year or so.
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  #46  
Old 02-09-2011, 08:26 AM
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SVA_Concrete SVA_Concrete is offline
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Originally Posted by MexicanAmerican1 View Post
I don't understand either. Where I am, we experiense many, many freeze/thaw cycles. Concrete install warantees around here are at bes a joke, but usually non-existent and most of the concrete is cracked after a year or so.
dude, you are a joke or something.

in this post you can spell understand, non-existent, and form a sentance, yet in others you spell very with a "b" to fit a stereotype.
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  #47  
Old 02-09-2011, 11:05 AM
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Go here: http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=59514

This should help to post pictures.
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  #48  
Old 02-09-2011, 11:17 AM
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DVS Hardscaper DVS Hardscaper is offline
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Concrete is like a cracked windshield.

Your windshield may have a crack in it. It's structurally sound (so I assume).

But who wants a crack in their windshield?


Same for concrete.



Yeah, i'm not sold on it.
I'm quite familiar with concrete construction (for the most part). We've done hundreds of concrete patios and walks.



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  #49  
Old 02-09-2011, 11:19 AM
Joe Cement Joe Cement is offline
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Originally Posted by MexicanAmerican1 View Post
I don't understand either. Where I am, we experiense many, many freeze/thaw cycles. Concrete install warantees around here are at bes a joke, but usually non-existent and most of the concrete is cracked after a year or so.
Iam not going to tell you my concrete will not crack. However I don't have many complaints bout it bc its minimum. It sounds like you should learn more about concrete bc it seems like you are dong something wrong bc you have so many complaints bout your concrete cracking.
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  #50  
Old 02-09-2011, 11:27 AM
Joe Cement Joe Cement is offline
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Originally Posted by DVS Hardscaper View Post
Concrete is like a cracked windshield.

Your windshield may have a crack in it. It's structurally sound (so I assume).

But who wants a crack in their windshield?


Same for concrete.



Yeah, i'm not sold on it.
I'm quite familiar with concrete construction (for the most part). We've done hundreds of concrete patios and walks.



,
The post here was about CONCRETE as a base for pavers and stone. I'm not sure you can see through your field and see the cracks in the base when your job is completed. Unless you were using an X ray machine.
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