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  #51  
Old 02-09-2011, 11:32 AM
Joe Cement Joe Cement is offline
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Originally Posted by DVS Hardscaper View Post
Concrete is like a cracked windshield.

Your windshield may have a crack in it. It's structurally sound (so I assume).

But who wants a crack in their windshield?


Same for concrete.



Yeah, i'm not sold on it.
I'm quite familiar with concrete construction (for the most part). We've done hundreds of concrete patios and walks.



,
DVS why are you doing hundreds of patios out of concrete if you yourself is not even sold on it. That seems to me like a bad business practice. Just my thought.
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  #52  
Old 02-09-2011, 03:35 PM
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DVS why are you doing hundreds of patios out of concrete if you yourself is not even sold on it. That seems to me like a bad business practice. Just my thought.
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Turning down income is bad biz.

People with limited income may want or need a small patio, they're not in a position to afford Pavers. In such cases you sell them what they want, do a good job, everyone is happy.
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  #53  
Old 02-09-2011, 04:11 PM
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I'm not a hardscaper, did a little work with a guy during a dry season about a decade ago though.

EVERY SINGLE brick paver patio/walk I've ever seen has sunk or settled. No matter how deep you go, no matter how much compaction you do, no matter how thick the base is, it's never straight and level after 5 years.

Don't even get me started about edges. They're always sagging.

Moss, grass, weeds growing up through.....What a mess.

Concrete is great when it's done right. Lasts a long, LONG time.

I have a 12x20 patio at my house that was poured in 1953. One solid pour. 5" thick. Cinder block footers. NOT ONE CRACK! Hairline or otherwise. If it's done right, its the way to go.


As far as this thread goes though......

It's about using a concrete slab as a base underneath a paver patio. I think this is a great idea.

Who cares about cracks??? You'd never see them, they're UNDERNEATH the pavers. This would be the way to go on a driveway.....Ever see a paver driveway 5-10 years later??? You can see exactly where the tires run. All sunk in. This would eliminate that and disperse the weight of a car/truck throughout the entire width of the driveway instead of over 5 or so bricks.
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  #54  
Old 02-09-2011, 04:39 PM
joes169 joes169 is offline
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Sorry if its to simple to understand, in fact I've researched a little to find that rebar is coated to prevent corrision from happening but depending on the contractor if they fail to use the proper materials IT CAN AND WILL HAPPEN, steel rusts which is a fact and yes oxygen can be present in concrete. Just cause you seal it doesn't mean that its air tight. In all the information I've seen is that this coating rated for mild exposures of corrosive materials. We've all seen this on trucks, a little flake in the paint is missing gone untreated for a number of years and now you have a hole in your cab. Give rust a inch and it will take a mile, this is no web based myth.

- http://gloprotek.com/Glo-Protek-Reba...ctive-Coat.asp

As for saying concrete will return to it intended position after heaving. Maybe on your sites but nothing can convince me that North ave or Summit in Waukesha is a smooth concrete road, I drive them everyday and everyday I feel like I'm picking my teeth out of the steering wheel from bouncing around so much. Heck take a drive down Capital, do mind the 74 over pass trucks just love slamming into it, or not to mention Silver Spring in Milwaukee before they resurfaced it. But it doesn't help when a county truck with a plow slams into a heave piece of concrete creating a bigger pothole. If fact not just road ways but sidewalks as well, to give another example look at the walks at MATC north campus, they heaved or settled and stayed heaved or settled, though their problem may have been that each section is around 12x12ft.

I'm not trying to argue with y'all, it isn't my intent and I don't mean to point the imaginary finger towards you. Each concrete contractor is different and each one builds/repairs differently, and it shows. I've seen some sloppy repairs, again this is on the contractor.

Thank you for clearing up the "exploding" concrete, I heard it happen actually (driving down Sunset in Waukesha sounded like a Shotgun blast behind me, came back down sunset in the other direction with a squad blocking traffic and a pile of busted concrete in front of the crusier)
First, the corrosion of steel to a point where it affects the concrete's performance is not a well documented issue in RESIDENTIAL concrete flatwork. Yes, you see it in public infastructure that see copious amounts of chlorides, as well as regions close to salt water. These kinds of structures also have vasts amounts of steel near the surface as well. What is being discussed here is residential flatwork, not highways & bridges. As I stated earlier, I've never seen a piece of residential concrete flatwork fail when the concrete & steel was placed properly. Go back & read what I stated.

Here's a better link from an organization that's not trying to sell the reader something: http://www.nrmca.org/aboutconcrete/cips/25p.pdf
(Note the emphasis of the article on environment & placement of steel.......)

Second, unless you're closely monitoring these local roads, highways, and streets, how do you know they're heaving and not returning down in spring??????? The fact is that the service life of concrete roads is several times that of asphalt. Sure they get rough, and are generally better suited for lower speed limit roads, but asphalt roads take a beating as well. Care to explain how you think roads constructed of pavers would fair vs. concrete?

I'll give you one more example: In my hometown, just two years ago the main street was rebuilt. About 5 miles total of state highway. The original concrete road was over 40 years old, and the main purpose of the project was to narrow the street to allow more green space, as well as make it more pedestrian friendly (easier to cross the wide road safely.) It was entirely engineered to state specs, and the downtown has deco concrete and pavers in the intersections and crosswalks, as well as pavers on the parkway & sidewalks. The parkways & sidewalks have a gravel base, the streets have pavers directly over concrete. I can't think that it's an un-acceptable practice if it passes state DOT specs......


Quote:
Originally Posted by TLS View Post
I'm not a hardscaper, did a little work with a guy during a dry season about a decade ago though.

EVERY SINGLE brick paver patio/walk I've ever seen has sunk or settled. No matter how deep you go, no matter how much compaction you do, no matter how thick the base is, it's never straight and level after 5 years.

Don't even get me started about edges. They're always sagging.

Moss, grass, weeds growing up through.....What a mess.

Concrete is great when it's done right. Lasts a long, LONG time.

I have a 12x20 patio at my house that was poured in 1953. One solid pour. 5" thick. Cinder block footers. NOT ONE CRACK! Hairline or otherwise. If it's done right, its the way to go.


As far as this thread goes though......

It's about using a concrete slab as a base underneath a paver patio. I think this is a great idea.

Who cares about cracks??? You'd never see them, they're UNDERNEATH the pavers. This would be the way to go on a driveway.....Ever see a paver driveway 5-10 years later??? You can see exactly where the tires run. All sunk in. This would eliminate that and disperse the weight of a car/truck throughout the entire width of the driveway instead of over 5 or so bricks.
Excellent points.....
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  #55  
Old 02-09-2011, 06:11 PM
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AztlanLC AztlanLC is offline
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Are we talking using concrete as a base and then the bedding base or pavers right on top of concrete, if its the first method I have seen it done and think is a good practice those cracks will not show on the surface and there is even cross sections on the ICPI manuals for those that follow ICPI 100%.
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  #56  
Old 02-09-2011, 08:11 PM
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DVS Hardscaper DVS Hardscaper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TLS View Post
I'm not a hardscaper, did a little work with a guy during a dry season about a decade ago though.

EVERY SINGLE brick paver patio/walk I've ever seen has sunk or settled. No matter how deep you go, no matter how much compaction you do, no matter how thick the base is, it's never straight and level after 5 years.

Going on 15 years in this bidness. We have repeat clients and I get to see our old jobs frequently. They look great! Good possibility the base wasn'f of correct base material. Or wasn't properly compacted. Or was placed on disturbed soil. Disturbed soil could be new construction backfill, or patio guy excavating too deep and putting the soil pack, instaed of leaving it out all together once disturbed.

Don't even get me started about edges. They're always sagging.

Could very well be. I spend about 3 minutes discussing proper base installation with our prospective clients specifically talking about the importance of proper base installation in terms of sagging pavers, and I even show pictures.

Moss, grass, weeds growing up through.....What a mess.

Grass and weeds grow from the TOP DOWN. So pavers installed over a concrete slab are equally suspectible to germination of vegatation. Moss grows in shade. I seen moss on concrete, vinyl siding, and wood as well.

Concrete is great when it's done right. Lasts a long, LONG time.

I have a 12x20 patio at my house that was poured in 1953. One solid pour. 5" thick. Cinder block footers. NOT ONE CRACK! Hairline or otherwise. If it's done right, its the way to go.
We do demolition. We recently did a demo job at Gerald Fords former residence in Alexandria VA, that old concrete (Circa 1957) didn't have a single hairline crack, was in perfect condition.
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  #57  
Old 02-09-2011, 08:15 PM
Joe Cement Joe Cement is offline
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  #58  
Old 02-09-2011, 08:24 PM
Joe Cement Joe Cement is offline
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Sorry bout the double post their I'm still learning the site. I am very happy to see there are other profesionals that are agreeing with the idea of how I do my installs. Which is always with a concrete base. It seems like no one here can give me any very strong reasons why aggregate would be a better choice. And CRACKING means nothing to me.
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  #59  
Old 02-09-2011, 09:19 PM
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DVS Hardscaper DVS Hardscaper is offline
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ok......I have seen plenty of slabs settle 4-inches and more.

Slap pavers over it when it's new.

10 yrs later she settles.

Now you gotta do a complete demo to bring to proper grade.

I don't know what else to say. Like everyone else here, I'm in hundreds of backyards a year (through doing estimates and our own jobs), I've seen old concrete in perfect condition. I've seen 18 yr old concrete severely settled and falling towards the foundation. I've seen concrete broken and shifted by inches.

I've seen pavers improperly installed. I've seen pavers installed with no geo-fabric, and hear people saying "the soil is structural so it's not needed. Can't argue that. But......WHAT IF??? Fabric is $0.09 -$0.15 / SF. Why not use it for piece if mind?


We have alotta jobs (primarily pool decks) that are installed over concrete slabs. Infact I just fired over a proposal for a 1350 SF pool deck placed over 700 SF of existing concrete.

Existing properties, over 5 yrs old? Sure we would place pavers over concrete.

A brand new property?? No way.


This entire paver job is over a concrete slab with 1.5" of bedding sand. Not a single call back.



On the other hand, if and when I ever install pavers at my own home - they'll be placed on an aggregate base for reasons of my own.


.
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Last edited by DVS Hardscaper; 02-09-2011 at 09:25 PM.
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  #60  
Old 02-10-2011, 01:08 AM
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...................

Quote:
Originally Posted by joes169 View Post
First, the corrosion of steel to a point where it affects the concrete's performance is not a well documented issue in RESIDENTIAL concrete flatwork. Yes, you see it in public infastructure that see copious amounts of chlorides, as well as regions close to salt water. These kinds of structures also have vasts amounts of steel near the surface as well. What is being discussed here is residential flatwork, not highways & bridges. As I stated earlier, I've never seen a piece of residential concrete flatwork fail when the concrete & steel was placed properly. Go back & read what I stated.
So what your telling, in a residential setting, that a home with a 80yr old lady using a walker and as were the family using salt in enormous amounts to control icing problems will not deterate your flatwork over time? My snow/ice control comes from commerical side of things, at one medical facitily alone I've spread close to 22tons of salt this season, so maybe I do not follow you
Here's a better link from an organization that's not trying to sell the reader something: http://www.nrmca.org/aboutconcrete/cips/25p.pdf
(Note the emphasis of the article on environment & placement of steel.......)

Second, unless you're closely monitoring these local roads, highways, and streets, how do you know they're heaving and not returning down in spring??????? The fact is that the service life of concrete roads is several times that of asphalt. Sure they get rough, and are generally better suited for lower speed limit roads, but asphalt roads take a beating as well. Care to explain how you think roads constructed of pavers would fair vs. concrete?
Well it doesn't get any better in spring as you said that "any heave will return", in fact I don't see paver roads holding up any better than concrete or asphalt to a heavily loaded commerical truck
I'll give you one more example: In my hometown, just two years ago the main street was rebuilt. About 5 miles total of state highway. The original concrete road was over 40 years old, and the main purpose of the project was to narrow the street to allow more green space, as well as make it more pedestrian friendly (easier to cross the wide road safely.) It was entirely engineered to state specs, and the downtown has deco concrete and pavers in the intersections and crosswalks, as well as pavers on the parkway & sidewalks. The parkways & sidewalks have a gravel base, the streets have pavers directly over concrete. I can't think that it's an un-acceptable practice if it passes state DOT specs......
What is the weight limit on the road? Does your municpality have a restriction such as sussex where no traffic over 10 tons is allowed?



Excellent points.....
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