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  #11  
Old 02-20-2011, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by ksss View Post
When CAT starts putting the CNH engine in their machines, it will level the engine playing field. Like mentioned, everyones largest machines will be around 250 foot pounds. That will be a substantial increase for CAT which has never broken 220 foot pounds before.

Interesting comments on the Kubota, I ran the smaller machine, but had about the same view as Ozz. Really not impressed, I thought they would have been a lot more competative than that. Not to say they wont sell a few, I am sure the Kubota faithfull will see to that. However I don't think the North American end user had a lot to say about that machine, at least it doesn't seem like it.

Things are changing or shall I say evolving and there is not much to do about it other than embrace it and move forward. I think it is ironic since the CAT guy who never bought a machine based on its superior engine performance (if they were, they would never have bought a CAT in the first place), he will actually see a substantial improvement in engine performance (with the CNH engines), the CASE guy who has lost 38 foot pounds of torque now has to get acclimated to a more CAT like performance standard which is to say higher hp with less displacement and less torque.

I don't doubt that CNH will lose a few faithful from the NH and CASE lines that the others may pickup. However from the CASE side I am not sure who would pick them up. No one is still offering a S3 style machine. Deere likely will be the landing spot for the pissed off NH guys. I also think that CNH will pickup some customers that they could not sell to before. This is especially true on the lower end of the ROC lineup. I tried to keep an open mind when running the machines and came impressed with what where they ended up, as I mentioned before though they needed to go farther with the E/H. If the machines hold up and perform OVERALL like the machines they replaced all will be good. Although there were some step backs (reach, torque) there were numerous steps forward (cab, affordability, available hyd performance, fuel consumption, engine recovery). The CNH customer finally has a cab that he can feel good about spending the money on. The S-3 cab was ok this new one is much better.

Here is the other issue all of us need to think about. As the new tier requirments inch forward and start impacting (even more) the machines that all of us here use (DEF for example), you can buy now or you can pay even more later (both in money and asss tax). The engine technology is not getting cheaper, its a bitter pill to swallow but it will get even more bitter as time goes on.
Isn't the current 440S3 around 288 foot pounds for torque? The sad part is the S3 chassis will no longer be on the market. The 440S3 with a few tweaks is still one of the best machines out there in the midsize market. How awesome would it be to have the 440S3 chassis with a S3 vertical lift option(like a 435/445/465)? The cab may not be as good as the Cat but I feel it had a good balance of functionality and durability. I feel some of the other brands seem chintzy or plasticy.

I am not looking forward to the time the skids run DEF or go to the more restrictive Tier levels and it will cost us way more just to own the machine unfortunately.

As for Cat using the CNH motor, here is a radical thought - what would stop Cat and Fiat(CNH owner) from rebadging the Alpha series as a Cat? We may have a cow but look at it from the suits perspective, it would lower the cost with extra unit/component volumes and spread that R&D money out?
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  #12  
Old 02-20-2011, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stuvecorp View Post
Isn't the current 440S3 around 288 foot pounds for torque? The sad part is the S3 chassis will no longer be on the market. The 440S3 with a few tweaks is still one of the best machines out there in the midsize market. How awesome would it be to have the 440S3 chassis with a S3 vertical lift option(like a 435/445/465)? The cab may not be as good as the Cat but I feel it had a good balance of functionality and durability. I feel some of the other brands seem chintzy or plasticy.

I am not looking forward to the time the skids run DEF or go to the more restrictive Tier levels and it will cost us way more just to own the machine unfortunately.

As for Cat using the CNH motor, here is a radical thought - what would stop Cat and Fiat(CNH owner) from rebadging the Alpha series as a Cat? We may have a cow but look at it from the suits perspective, it would lower the cost with extra unit/component volumes and spread that R&D money out?
I agree that he 440S3 is the best right now.

My track loaders (don't bash 'em.) and 315 are getting me along pretty well right now, but the scary thought is if and when I need a skid steer to be competitive, and when I have to replace aging gear. (My 941B is over 30 years old right now, and the 555 is 12.) I'm gonna get screwed when I have to buy a TIER IV track loader- If they exist then, as excavators may make them useless soon. Ther won't be a thing called rear visibility if Cat and Deere want to keep the engine compartments narrow. And we've all seen Deere, Volvo and Cat's TIER IV excavators. Some aren't so bad, some (Cat) are terrible. I can't afford TIER III gear right now, because I'm running thin. I don't like what's going on it SSL/CTLs right now.



Cat and Fiat could in theory rebadge the engine, but CNH would have a freaking cow, and probably require a liscense of some sort or a royalty fee.
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  #13  
Old 02-20-2011, 10:19 PM
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stuvecorp stuvecorp is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozz View Post
I agree that he 440S3 is the best right now.

My track loaders (don't bash 'em.) and 315 are getting me along pretty well right now, but the scary thought is if and when I need a skid steer to be competitive, and when I have to replace aging gear. (My 941B is over 30 years old right now, and the 555 is 12.) I'm gonna get screwed when I have to buy a TIER IV track loader- If they exist then, as excavators may make them useless soon. Ther won't be a thing called rear visibility if Cat and Deere want to keep the engine compartments narrow. And we've all seen Deere, Volvo and Cat's TIER IV excavators. Some aren't so bad, some (Cat) are terrible. I can't afford TIER III gear right now, because I'm running thin. I don't like what's going on it SSL/CTLs right now.



Cat and Fiat could in theory rebadge the engine, but CNH would have a freaking cow, and probably require a liscense of some sort or a royalty fee.
I know I always give you a hard time but use what works for you. I do like the 943/953 loaders and honestly wouldn't mind one someday. What worries me is the older iron getting legislated out. I think the best thing is to get as new of stuff as possible so you at least have a little longer time to figure stuff out but it's really hard to spend money that isn't there right now.


As for rebadging, Fiat is the one that has all the say. They made NH and Case basically put out the same skid/CTL? It may seem far fetched but it really wouldn't surprise me if something like this happened...
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  #14  
Old 02-20-2011, 10:21 PM
Digdeep Digdeep is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozz View Post
I agree that he 440S3 is the best right now.

My track loaders (don't bash 'em.) and 315 are getting me along pretty well right now, but the scary thought is if and when I need a skid steer to be competitive, and when I have to replace aging gear. (My 941B is over 30 years old right now, and the 555 is 12.) I'm gonna get screwed when I have to buy a TIER IV track loader- If they exist then, as excavators may make them useless soon. Ther won't be a thing called rear visibility if Cat and Deere want to keep the engine compartments narrow. And we've all seen Deere, Volvo and Cat's TIER IV excavators. Some aren't so bad, some (Cat) are terrible. I can't afford TIER III gear right now, because I'm running thin. I don't like what's going on it SSL/CTLs right now.



Cat and Fiat could in theory rebadge the engine, but CNH would have a freaking cow, and probably require a liscense of some sort or a royalty fee.
CAT will be using the same 3.2L engine. Perkins has already signed an agreement and CAT owns Perkins.
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  #15  
Old 02-21-2011, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stuvecorp View Post
Isn't the current 440S3 around 288 foot pounds for torque? The sad part is the S3 chassis will no longer be on the market. The 440S3 with a few tweaks is still one of the best machines out there in the midsize market. How awesome would it be to have the 440S3 chassis with a S3 vertical lift option(like a 435/445/465)? The cab may not be as good as the Cat but I feel it had a good balance of functionality and durability. I feel some of the other brands seem chintzy or plasticy.

I am not looking forward to the time the skids run DEF or go to the more restrictive Tier levels and it will cost us way more just to own the machine unfortunately.

As for Cat using the CNH motor, here is a radical thought - what would stop Cat and Fiat(CNH owner) from rebadging the Alpha series as a Cat? We may have a cow but look at it from the suits perspective, it would lower the cost with extra unit/component volumes and spread that R&D money out?
Bobcat and CNH have released machines that will take them into the next Tier level (hence the large asss these machines have). CAT and Deere will need to do the same, certainly CAT as they will apparently use the same technology as CNH. Maybe Deere has something else in mind.

At first thought it seems crazy that CAT and CNH would market the same machine. But when I start thinking about it, it gets less crazy. SSL/CTL sales numbers are fractions of what they were 4 years ago and lets be honest, they are not coming back like they were. CAT has Wacker building their smaller mini excavators. It could happen, although I still doubt it, but CAT announced several years ago before things west way South, that they were not making money in the compact market.

I still don't get Terex building their own SSL. Don't see that working out for them but maybe since they build ASV's they have most of what they need to build SSLs anyway and so their costs are not as high. I don't see them getting anywhere with it. Too little of a dealer base, with ASV if you want one there is only one place to get one and thats from ASV (the CAT MTL is not the same), obviously not the case with a SSL. I would guess 95% of America is within 50 miles of some kind of a skid steer/ CTL dealer. I could prove to be wrong on this but I don't think so.


The Alpha machine is no doubt more of a finesse machine compared to the previous machines. The engineers were blunt, the XT and 400 series machines were designed when steel was cheap. That is not true and likely never will be again. They cant make a machine like that anymore and sell it and still make money. I am kinda being pushed on this TR machine. If I want it I will likely have to sign for it and they will get it built right away. Looks like it will be a 3rd or 4th quarter build as it is. They are way stacked on orders. They mentioned this over and over to get your orders in early, I thought is was BS to generate more orders but It appears it was actually straight up.

The 440, in my much distorted view, in either in orginal or 440S3 dress is one of the best skid steers brought to market. Although it will never rise to the cult level of the 1845C, it is without a doubt, in my mind, worthy of it.
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  #16  
Old 02-21-2011, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ksss View Post
Bobcat and CNH have released machines that will take them into the next Tier level (hence the large asss these machines have). CAT and Deere will need to do the same, certainly CAT as they will apparently use the same technology as CNH. Maybe Deere has something else in mind.

At first thought it seems crazy that CAT and CNH would market the same machine. But when I start thinking about it, it gets less crazy. SSL/CTL sales numbers are fractions of what they were 4 years ago and lets be honest, they are not coming back like they were. CAT has Wacker building their smaller mini excavators. It could happen, although I still doubt it, but CAT announced several years ago before things west way South, that they were not making money in the compact market.

I still don't get Terex building their own SSL. Don't see that working out for them but maybe since they build ASV's they have most of what they need to build SSLs anyway and so their costs are not as high. I don't see them getting anywhere with it. Too little of a dealer base, with ASV if you want one there is only one place to get one and thats from ASV (the CAT MTL is not the same), obviously not the case with a SSL. I would guess 95% of America is within 50 miles of some kind of a skid steer/ CTL dealer. I could prove to be wrong on this but I don't think so.


The Alpha machine is no doubt more of a finesse machine compared to the previous machines. The engineers were blunt, the XT and 400 series machines were designed when steel was cheap. That is not true and likely never will be again. They cant make a machine like that anymore and sell it and still make money. I am kinda being pushed on this TR machine. If I want it I will likely have to sign for it and they will get it built right away. Looks like it will be a 3rd or 4th quarter build as it is. They are way stacked on orders. They mentioned this over and over to get your orders in early, I thought is was BS to generate more orders but It appears it was actually straight up.

The 440, in my much distorted view, in either in orginal or 440S3 dress is one of the best skid steers brought to market. Although it will never rise to the cult level of the 1845C, it is without a doubt, in my mind, worthy of it.
I agree on the Terex skids but think they want part of the wheeled market.

Something I've heard from the NH side is the 3.2 has been very good on power and fuel so time will tell. Isn't the 3.2 in the 420S3 and 430S3?

I will continue the lovefest for the XT/440 chassis, especially the S3's.
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  #17  
Old 02-21-2011, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stuvecorp View Post
I agree on the Terex skids but think they want part of the wheeled market.

Something I've heard from the NH side is the 3.2 has been very good on power and fuel so time will tell. Isn't the 3.2 in the 420S3 and 430S3?

I will continue the lovefest for the XT/440 chassis, especially the S3's.
I also think the SSL for ASV was a bad idea. ASV is like Takeuchi here... a large market with no dealer support.

On the torque of the new engines, my Deere CT332 had around 250lbs. and it was plenty. I'm all about the more power, the better, but that amount of torque was better than good. I know it translates different to each machine, but I would think 250lbs + in a 440 size machine would be very good.
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  #18  
Old 02-21-2011, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by dozerman21 View Post
I also think the SSL for ASV was a bad idea. ASV is like Takeuchi here... a large market with no dealer support.

On the torque of the new engines, my Deere CT332 had around 250lbs. and it was plenty. I'm all about the more power, the better, but that amount of torque was better than good. I know it translates different to each machine, but I would think 250lbs + in a 440 size machine would be very good.
Actually I told myself the same thing. Nobody complains about Deere being short of power and their largest machines have the same amount of torque. Just when you have 288 foot pounds, going down is not easy to wrap your head around. The 430 does have the 3.2

I think its a good engine, I just think the 4.5 was a great engine and a little more refinement it would have been perfect.
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  #19  
Old 02-22-2011, 08:09 PM
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I actually think it makes sense for Terex to introduce a SSL. It rounds out their compact range- CTL, mini, and now SSL along with their wheel loaders, telehandlers, backhoes, dumpers, rollers, light towers, etc.

Also, from what I can tell, the CTL and SSL share many of the same components- engines, pumps, controls, etc. In my eyes, if I were a potential customer it shows that Terex is making a commitment to the compact industry- new SSL and backhoe. It goes with their efforts to strengthen their dealer network. Time will tell if it was smart.
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  #20  
Old 02-28-2011, 09:15 PM
A.EXCAVATING A.EXCAVATING is offline
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If you guys like torque cats new 299c is a very nice machine little bit on pricey side but like ozz said you cant beat a old 941b or a 939 both GREAT little machine small enough to get around and still enough power to move ALOT of dirt
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