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  #11  
Old 03-01-2011, 11:14 PM
ps6fsu ps6fsu is offline
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Soil Temps

Found this website for up to date soil temperatures. Closest one to me was Powder Mill, MD (about 90 miles SW of me). According to the NRCS the soil temp there on 2/28 was 48@1" deep, 44.2@4" deep, and 43.7@8" deep.

http://www.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/scan/
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  #12  
Old 03-02-2011, 06:47 AM
tombo82685 tombo82685 is offline
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Originally Posted by ps6fsu View Post
Thanks for the advice guys. Im not sure which route to go because I agree with both of you. I really wanted to get some seed down but Tombo is right... it is a bit early. The high today was just above freezing. I was shooting more towards the end of the month for seed. So basically my 2 options are...

1) Put seed down in 2-4 weeks with tupersan and possibly re-apply in 4-6 weeks which would be expensive. I dont think I would be abe to safely use a product like dimension or barricade until mid to late may which may be too late.

2) Skip the seed and apply dimension in next couple of weeks ad just seed in fall. I know Tombo suggested being able to seed the bare spots after agitating but that would be alot of elbow grease that im not sure I am willing to do by hand. Currently, there are alot of bare spots.

My one question (regardless of which route I take) is should i still run the power rake over it? It has not been dethatched in years and I was thinking it would help remove some of the dead weeds also. Obviously I would need to do this before I apply pre-emergent.
I would suggest double coring, go one way one time and another way the other time. Coring may be less abrasive to the lawn (do this before the pre emerge). Unless your lawn is solid creeping red fescue or poa, i doubt it has to much thatch, but aerating doesn't hurt for other reasons. Also, if you can, drag-mat the aerated area to fill the holes back in.

Here is what i would do next i believe riggle gave this option, pick the ugliest areas and maybe sod those areas so you have instant green. Then try the tuperspan and seed the rest of the areas. Then after a mowing or two of the new seed, put down dimension or barricade, because that tuperspan is going to have a short holding back period. A shot of nitrogen, less than a half pound will help in late april or may then come back in late may with another shot of slow release nitrogen around a half pound or less.
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  #13  
Old 03-02-2011, 06:54 AM
tombo82685 tombo82685 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ps6fsu View Post
Found this website for up to date soil temperatures. Closest one to me was Powder Mill, MD (about 90 miles SW of me). According to the NRCS the soil temp there on 2/28 was 48@1" deep, 44.2@4" deep, and 43.7@8" deep.

http://www.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/scan/
I wouldn't go by that. Just look at this winter we went through. Dc had maybe 6 inches of snow while our areas had 30-45 inches of snow. I have a soil thermometer here at work i will measure it at 1 inch, 3 inches and 5 inches to get the readings and i will tell you what i come up with. Also the links riggle posted with the soil maps. That can be a little deceiving. The areas where it was 50-55 soil temp is down in lower del and another warmer tongue into south jerz. Those areas have a lot sand in there soil profile. Sand fluctuates a lot more from temperature do to its coarser pore space which allows more oxygen flow. While clay, which we has sand.
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  #14  
Old 03-02-2011, 07:24 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ps6fsu View Post
Thanks for the advice guys. Im not sure which route to go because I agree with both of you. I really wanted to get some seed down but Tombo is right... it is a bit early. The high today was just above freezing. I was shooting more towards the end of the month for seed. So basically my 2 options are...

1) Put seed down in 2-4 weeks with tupersan and possibly re-apply in 4-6 weeks which would be expensive. I dont think I would be abe to safely use a product like dimension or barricade until mid to late may which may be too late.

2) Skip the seed and apply dimension in next couple of weeks ad just seed in fall. I know Tombo suggested being able to seed the bare spots after agitating but that would be alot of elbow grease that im not sure I am willing to do by hand. Currently, there are alot of bare spots.

My one question (regardless of which route I take) is should i still run the power rake over it? It has not been dethatched in years and I was thinking it would help remove some of the dead weeds also. Obviously I would need to do this before I apply pre-emergent.
It is not a decision you should make for your client, IMO... He is the one wanting to do various garden parties throughout the season... He is the one that has to deal with barespots and mud for his outdoor activities, if you make the decision 'for him' that one can only reseed in the fall...

I would talk with him, tell him that he SHOULD get some decent germination, perhaps excellent gemination, if we covered with compost...

He MAY have some CG in the lawn at the time of his parties, but - "Is that a better option than mud and dirt?"
LET him decide...

Your area shouldn't have much in the way of noticeable CG for graduation parties anyway...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
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  #15  
Old 03-02-2011, 12:07 PM
tombo82685 tombo82685 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
It is not a decision you should make for your client, IMO... He is the one wanting to do various garden parties throughout the season... He is the one that has to deal with barespots and mud for his outdoor activities, if you make the decision 'for him' that one can only reseed in the fall...

I would talk with him, tell him that he SHOULD get some decent germination, perhaps excellent gemination, if we covered with compost...

He MAY have some CG in the lawn at the time of his parties, but - "Is that a better option than mud and dirt?"
LET him decide...

Your area shouldn't have much in the way of noticeable CG for graduation parties anyway...
Good post i agree. It also would help to know when the graduation party is. If its a college graduation, the parties are usually in mid to late may, you could get away with virtually no or very few CG infestation if you seed. If its an 8th grade or high school graduation they are usually in mid to late june and you may run into some issues there, but you could always just treat those areas with a post emerge.
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  #16  
Old 03-02-2011, 09:21 PM
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RigglePLC RigglePLC is online now
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I think you could skip the power rake. No need to remove last year's crabgrass and dead weeds. I looked at soil temperature maps again; color is a pale blue or maybe aqua green. Now, it looks like your soil temp is 40 to 45. But a soil thermometer should answer this question for your local conditions. Cheap at any auto parts store. Seeding now is essentially dormant seeding. Tombo knows his stuff. And he is a lot closer to you. Myself, I don't think you would lose much due to seed mortality or birds. The seed absorbs water and waits for 50 degrees soil temp--then sprouts. No need to apply Tupersan until just before the date of expected crabgrass germination. Tombo can advise you on that date, for you area. ( My guess is when air temp hits about 80).

I am not sure if indoor pre-germination would speed up the overall germination progress--see my other thread.

Actually power raking is good way to prepare soil t recive seed. Assures good seed to soil contact.

Last edited by RigglePLC; 03-02-2011 at 09:28 PM. Reason: add
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  #17  
Old 03-02-2011, 10:22 PM
ps6fsu ps6fsu is offline
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Thanks so much for all of your help guys. At the very least I have much more knowledge about all of this stuff. Im gonna go pick up a soil thermometer this weekend. At what depth should I test?
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  #18  
Old 03-03-2011, 09:41 AM
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RigglePLC RigglePLC is online now
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I would say put the thermometer at about a 2 inch depth. Crabgrass and grass seed begins life almost at the surface.
I notice in one of the above articles the ryegrass seedling grows a lot faster at 30 degrees Celsius. That is about 86 degrees.
This is one of the advantages of seeding in late summer when soil temps are high--very rapid germination and early growth. (provided you can keep it wet--naturally evaporation is fast at high temps). And of course the chance for fungus like pythium is higher.

Last edited by RigglePLC; 03-03-2011 at 09:51 AM. Reason: add
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  #19  
Old 03-03-2011, 03:53 PM
tombo82685 tombo82685 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RigglePLC View Post
I think you could skip the power rake. No need to remove last year's crabgrass and dead weeds. I looked at soil temperature maps again; color is a pale blue or maybe aqua green. Now, it looks like your soil temp is 40 to 45. But a soil thermometer should answer this question for your local conditions. Cheap at any auto parts store. Seeding now is essentially dormant seeding. Tombo knows his stuff. And he is a lot closer to you. Myself, I don't think you would lose much due to seed mortality or birds. The seed absorbs water and waits for 50 degrees soil temp--then sprouts. No need to apply Tupersan until just before the date of expected crabgrass germination. Tombo can advise you on that date, for you area. ( My guess is when air temp hits about 80).

I am not sure if indoor pre-germination would speed up the overall germination progress--see my other thread.

Actually power raking is good way to prepare soil t recive seed. Assures good seed to soil contact.
The grass usually starts going in early to mid april. You need a constant 50 degree soil temp for 3 days for crabgrass to germinate and other seeds. Ideal soil temperature for cool season grass is 60-75.
That soil map is basically dead on. I stuck the thermometer in yesterday afternoon around 1pm and got a reading of 45 around 2-3 inches into the profile. After last night and today with temps in the upper teens for lows and mid 30s for highs that has been knocked back.

Here on the golf course we go every other year for pre emerge. They say crabgrass seedlings are active for growth for 7-10 years, after that they shut down.
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Last edited by tombo82685; 03-03-2011 at 04:01 PM.
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  #20  
Old 03-05-2011, 08:14 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tombo82685 View Post
The grass usually starts going in early to mid april. You need a constant 50 degree soil temp for 3 days for crabgrass to germinate and other seeds. Ideal soil temperature for cool season grass is 60-75.
That soil map is basically dead on. I stuck the thermometer in yesterday afternoon around 1pm and got a reading of 45 around 2-3 inches into the profile. After last night and today with temps in the upper teens for lows and mid 30s for highs that has been knocked back.

Here on the golf course we go every other year for pre emerge. They say crabgrass seedlings are active for growth for 7-10 years, after that they shut down.
With that logic, one would tend to think CG can come along quicker than cool season grasses...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
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