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  #11  
Old 03-07-2011, 01:27 PM
Squirter Squirter is offline
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riggle / tombo...

i have to confess, i was a bit aprehensive about tombo's suggestion to apply pre-m to the entire lawn....and then scratch up the area(s) that need seed. however, riggle...you seem to support his approach so i'm opening up to the idea. my initial thought is if i apply a pre-m to the entire lawn and then prep the areas needing seed, a good rain (or several) would cause the pre-m to wash or leech into my new seed thereby preventing germination. if i was just seeding one concentrated area needing repair, i could see trying to isolate/eliminate that area from my pre-m application so i wouldn't worry about rain washing over and contaminating the seeded area. however, the repairs that are needed seem to be scattered throughout and not easily isolated or confined.

wouldn't this be reason enough to forego the pre-m 'this spring' and simply concentrate on seeding early spring or even later should i need a 're-do'. i think i could take my chances with some crabgrass infestation in my 'unprotected lawn' because it's already pretty thick. as i said, i do have an irrigation system so heat/drought conditions isn't a big concern for new seedlings. ultimately, i totally agree with the idea that a thick lawn provides little room for weeds/crabgrass. at least this is my goal.

as for my neighbor's (a relative) lawn, i can completely agree with all the suggestions that have been thrown out in previous replies. the plan is starting to become clear.

on the topic of using good 'disease resistant' seed with a good blend of kbg, i think my original stand of grass was 'premium atheletic' from lesco....which i thought was a pretty good blend. however, FOR ME, it hasn't been terribly resistant from the 5 fungus types mentioned as i have battled with some or all each of the 4 years since it's start. i'm sure, part of the problem is with the idiot who maintain's it (tee-hee).

this season, for my lawn, i'm going to try several new strategies such as: (a) 'spoon feed' fert schedule because my WALKER GHS is robbing me of important nutrient$ - clipping$, (b) mowing a little shorter than my usual 3 1/2" - 4" length during the hot and very humid months so the lawn won't maintain high moisture and breed fungus (c) apply fungicide at the proper rate/intervals and quit worrying about the cost, (d) incorporate a better, more disease resistant seed. i think i've already developed good watering/irrigation practices so that shouldn't be an issue. it's a bear trying for the perfect lawn!!!
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  #12  
Old 03-07-2011, 04:55 PM
tombo82685 tombo82685 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
We can agree on the idea that the chemical is in the soil, and if it is absorbed by the plant, it stifles the root which in turns kills the babies...
What makes no sense with that idea in mind was your explanation as to how breaking up the "Barrier" will allowyou to plant seed:
To quote your post,
"This is what you can do though. Apply the pre emerge down to the whole yard. Then the areas that you would like to seed, break up the soil, thus break the pre emerge barrier which will allow your seed to grow, while the rest of your lawn is controlled."

So the question is : How does breaking up the soil, get rid of the chemical? Isn't the chemical still there, only restirred in the same soil?

Also pre-m can still kill seedlings even after theyv'e produced leaves above ground. That is why you need to allow your good seed to mature enough to withstand the pre-m b4 applying for CG...

Not trying to be a pain, but the mythology of the barrier thing just makes it almost impossible to speak logically about spring seeding...
Lol its fine, i like a good discussion, i learn things just like other people do as well.

Imho its called a barrier because if you take core out of the soil and drop a seed in it will seed, thus that barrier was broken there. Just like on a damn, you punch a hole through the damn water is going to pour through that area.

In terms of the barrier, Breaking up the soil doesn't get rid of the chemical, it just exposes new soil that hasn't been influenced by the chemical and mitigates the overall coverage and exposure to the seed. The question here is how far does the chemical wash down into the soil profile? Is it just the surface to about a half inch or inch? Is it three inches? Obviously the shallower it is the easier it is to be dispersed and get rid of.

Also, something to ponder over . If the product is in the soil and you aerate, wouldn't you think it would restrict seed from germinating to? Granted you're removing the product in the soil when you core which would allows it to germinate. But say a person drag mats the cores back into the hole or you get a heavy rain the washes the soil into the hole wouldn't you think it would restrict the growth since the product is still within that soil?
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Last edited by tombo82685; 03-07-2011 at 05:00 PM.
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  #13  
Old 03-07-2011, 09:48 PM
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RigglePLC RigglePLC is online now
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Squirter--your plan sounds good. Most preemergent products bind to the upper layers of the soil. They are not water soluble so they don't move much from where they were applied. In theory, rain shoud not cause them to move to where your new seed is being sown.

I thought Lesco Premium Athletic Blend was good--I am surprized.
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  #14  
Old 03-08-2011, 07:24 AM
Squirter Squirter is offline
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i'm not saying others will have the same results (fungus) with lesco's premium athletic. i'm simply saying i've had difficulty...but it could easily be me, the homeowner, who is more experimental than scientific when it comes to lawncare. i'd like to blame the weather here in central indiana as a reson for some of my struggles...but

the rest of my story is after establishing my lawn 4-5 years ago with premium athletic, i have since slice/overseeded and spot seeded using lesco's 'best' 100% kbg. i have done this 2 out of the past 3 years (in the fall) with a goal of thickening my existing lawn, and trying to incorporate more kbg to address the fungus problems i have had. well, sadly to say, i haven't been terribly successful as my germination results haven't been great (timing? weather? temps? etc?). what i HAVE been successful doing is making polka-dots throughout my lawn as the 100% kbg, particularly the areas spot-seeded, have been drastically different in color when compared to the original stand of premium athletic. therefore, i've strongly considered destroying my entire lawn and starting over...even though my lawn is annually the talk (or envy) of the neighborhood. i'm just not satisfied!!! i want perfection!!!


recently, i've been looking at what i think are called 'elite' cultivars of kbg such as midnight, boutique, bewitched...and coming up with a blend of each. if i were to use these 'elite's', would i have to KILL my existing lawn and start from scratch, or could i just slice them into my existing turf? this would likely be a FALL project!
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  #15  
Old 03-08-2011, 09:30 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tombo82685 View Post
Lol its fine, i like a good discussion, i learn things just like other people do as well.

Imho its called a barrier because if you take core out of the soil and drop a seed in it will seed, thus that barrier was broken there. Just like on a damn, you punch a hole through the damn water is going to pour through that area.

In terms of the barrier, Breaking up the soil doesn't get rid of the chemical, it just exposes new soil that hasn't been influenced by the chemical and mitigates the overall coverage and exposure to the seed. The question here is how far does the chemical wash down into the soil profile? Is it just the surface to about a half inch or inch? Is it three inches? Obviously the shallower it is the easier it is to be dispersed and get rid of.

Also, something to ponder over . If the product is in the soil and you aerate, wouldn't you think it would restrict seed from germinating to? Granted you're removing the product in the soil when you core which would allows it to germinate. But say a person drag mats the cores back into the hole or you get a heavy rain the washes the soil into the hole wouldn't you think it would restrict the growth since the product is still within that soil?
I think the chemical binds to the surface of the soil as it dissolves and dispersses from it granule form. This gives it an even coverage that should poison every root under its given area... Roughing up an area and moving the soil around may open up spots where the chemical is no longer 'complete' but as the soil dispersses over the area again, how do you know whether it is soil that has AI attached to it or not?

That also raises a couple of questions:

How deep into the soil does it go?
Does it penetrate the 'thatch' layer?

I use pre-m primarily on rotten granite and apply it in liquid form. Driving on rotten granite continually rearranges the pebbles at the surface. Pushing some down, which forces others up. Yet this seems to be no real problem for the stuff. Our real failure occured last year when we recieved a couple inches of rain per month and the weeds suddenly took off about mid summer...
So I think it washes away moreso than we may think... It was supposed to last at least 3 months, and it usually does, however in our rainy summer it did not...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
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  #16  
Old 03-08-2011, 10:03 AM
tombo82685 tombo82685 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
I think the chemical binds to the surface of the soil as it dissolves and dispersses from it granule form. This gives it an even coverage that should poison every root under its given area... Roughing up an area and moving the soil around may open up spots where the chemical is no longer 'complete' but as the soil dispersses over the area again, how do you know whether it is soil that has AI attached to it or not?

That also raises a couple of questions:

How deep into the soil does it go?
Does it penetrate the 'thatch' layer?

I use pre-m primarily on rotten granite and apply it in liquid form. Driving on rotten granite continually rearranges the pebbles at the surface. Pushing some down, which forces others up. Yet this seems to be no real problem for the stuff. Our real failure occured last year when we recieved a couple inches of rain per month and the weeds suddenly took off about mid summer...
So I think it washes away moreso than we may think... It was supposed to last at least 3 months, and it usually does, however in our rainy summer it did not...
Never heard of that. Is it broken down granite thats mixed into your soil? Is it a location thing?
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  #17  
Old 03-08-2011, 10:16 AM
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RigglePLC RigglePLC is online now
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Squirter, I can tell you are as obsessed with perfect grass, like me, and our other regulars, around here. Do you mean that the bluegrass you added caused green spots, because it was a darker green color than the Premium Athletic Blend? So may I suggest if you plan a "do over", you should plan to kill the ryegrass-heavy Lesco Premium Athletic blend. Then lay a premium sod. (Try to find whatever is used at Wrigley Field).
If no sod, then a premium disease resistant elite Kentucky bluegrass from year 2005 or later, such as Blue Velvet.
http://www.pickseed.com/usa/Products..._velvet_ts.pdf
or similar. Remember that bluegrass is very slow to germinate and very slow in the first two months to fill-in. Best seeding date is when temps come down to about 85, say about Aug 28 in your area. Let us know what happens.
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  #18  
Old 03-08-2011, 10:43 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tombo82685 View Post
Never heard of that. Is it broken down granite thats mixed into your soil? Is it a location thing?
Rotten granite is a gravelly substance that is typically broken down to particle size of 1/4" and less. It has the nice color of the parent rock that breaks into these particles like a smashed windshield... We use it as a surface for driveways, parking lots or even walking paths...

Fairly common material around here...

Limestone with fines is also used but those particle sizes are actually up to 3/4", you must be familiar with that stuff?
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
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  #19  
Old 03-08-2011, 04:13 PM
tombo82685 tombo82685 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
Rotten granite is a gravelly substance that is typically broken down to particle size of 1/4" and less. It has the nice color of the parent rock that breaks into these particles like a smashed windshield... We use it as a surface for driveways, parking lots or even walking paths...

Fairly common material around here...

Limestone with fines is also used but those particle sizes are actually up to 3/4", you must be familiar with that stuff?
Thats mixed into your soil correct? If so, what type of soil do you have? With that material in your soil i would imagine you have some decent infiltration, cause, im not sure of this but i don't think you guys have clay soils up there or do you?
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  #20  
Old 03-08-2011, 04:17 PM
Squirter Squirter is offline
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riggle,

you're right. the kbg i added to the 'bare spots' does not match the prem. athletic original stand. this is just one of my reasons for a full renovation. in truth, since the original establishment of my lawn, i've probably used 3 different types of seed. stupid me. but i continue to have too many bare areas, and thanks to last summer's drought, i've got some additional repair work to be done. hence the thought of a complete renovation. mind you, it's just a thought at this point.....a tempting one at that. NOW....you just had to mention sod. hmmmmmmm, sounds like cheating. don't we get more self-satisfaction making it from scratch???
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