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  #61  
Old 03-24-2011, 09:21 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Originally Posted by Dchall_San_Antonio View Post
Compost is the single most expensive thing you can put on a client's lawn. In my neighborhood the raw materials cost $35 per yard plus delivery.
I have to disagree here. When we are looking at increasing SOM, bulk is king. Compare the cost of any other organic based product you can find on the market, buy it in bulk, compost it and measure your end quantity, then see where you come out financially in comparison to a comparable amount of compost.

Around these parts, Feather meal costs $35/50 lbs before shipping and tax, CGM at $60/65 lbs as opposed to $35/yard for high quality compost. If I need 2 acre-inches of stable organic matter (C:N of ~13-15) to bring my SOM to an acceptable value (5-10%), I think it is pretty clear which one of the three will be the most cost effective and marketable.
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  #62  
Old 03-24-2011, 09:38 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Originally Posted by dirtandhoops View Post
The possible disadvantage is its lack of availability at a reasonable cost to some in certain geographic areas. But that is true of proteins, as well.
When recycling of our green resources (manures, yard wastes, food wastes) becomes common, then we will all have a ready and less expensive input for our lawns.

In the meantime, compost will be the basis for my lawn care business and I WILL be making a profit and competing well vs. TruGreen et al.
Availability is a key factor obviously even if compost is a universal product. As you know, some people have access to cheap bulk sources of feed meals, others do not. Same applies for compost. There are those that might be able to break even on the bulk to cost ratio problem .... but most cannot.

Personally I feel if people are not selling a "program" that is designed to build a more fertile soil and move the site towards a more sustainable and closed system (i.e. reduced inputs), then you are not really "organic" regardless of what product you are using.
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  #63  
Old 03-24-2011, 09:55 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
...Personally I feel if people are not selling a "program" that is designed to build a more fertile soil and move the site towards a more sustainable and closed system (i.e. reduced inputs), then you are not really "organic" regardless of what product you are using.
Agreed... we are just selling "A Program"... that's all the thinking we are capable of...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
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  #64  
Old 03-24-2011, 11:14 AM
Tim Wilson Tim Wilson is offline
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Personally I feel if people are not selling a "program" that is designed to build a more fertile soil and move the site towards a more sustainable and closed system (i.e. reduced inputs), then you are not really "organic" regardless of what product you are using
I agree. This has to be the direction in the Americas and other areas where resources have been wasted. For some it may be about pure money, no matter the ethics involved. It is a choice.

Quote:
If you want to compete, you absolutely have to offer fertilizer, not microbes.
I'm sure Dave knows that it is primarily microbes which deliver nutrients from organic fertilizer to grass and other plants. In certain cases one may need to bolster the soil microbial population in addition to using the sorts of fertilizers mentioned by Dave. Quality (vermi)compost is one of the most complete and rounded 'fertilizers' available. As Kiril has mentioned it has the benefit of adding organic matter in larger amounts than the other fertilizers listed but it also carries with it the dormant and active forms of the microbes necessary for mineralizing the nutrients.

I understand the whole cost issue and (vermi)compost becomes highly cost effective when one is able to make it themselves. As for applying it inexpensively, if one is resourceful, a mix of (vermi)compost and water can be applied through a hose using a gas or electric trash pump. You can apply molasses or fish hydrolysate, etc. at the same time (I know these are not sustainable). This is similar to liquid compost extract (LCE) except without separating the solids from the liquids. The farmers in my area apply manure using this method. Dave: this does stink but compost does not.
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  #65  
Old 03-24-2011, 11:59 AM
dishboy dishboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
I have to disagree here. When we are looking at increasing SOM, bulk is king. Compare the cost of any other organic based product you can find on the market, buy it in bulk, compost it and measure your end quantity, then see where you come out financially in comparison to a comparable amount of compost.

Around these parts, Feather meal costs $35/50 lbs before shipping and tax, CGM at $60/65 lbs as opposed to $35/yard for high quality compost. If I need 2 acre-inches of stable organic matter (C:N of ~13-15) to bring my SOM to an acceptable value (5-10%), I think it is pretty clear which one of the three will be the most cost effective and marketable.
Can you help me out here. Dealing in sq ft(1000sq ft) how many yards of compost would it take to raise the soil from 3% to 4%. Also short of doing a soil analysis is there a government or other site that would list SOM for soils in a particular county or region.

Not to debate which is better or even suitable,just noting your pricing above, those who search hard will find 5-3-2 chicken manure around $6/40lbs or 300 a ton.
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  #66  
Old 03-24-2011, 12:54 PM
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phasthound phasthound is online now
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Compare the cost (product, shipping, labor) to a large LCO:
22 tons of biologically active (tested by SFI) composted poultry manure, air dried and in spreadable granular form delivered at $8.50/50lb bag applied at up to 20lbs/1000 with the amount of compost (tested?) delivered and labor costs to topdress the same area at 1/4 inch.

I know the results of both (if it's good compost properly applied) will be similar.
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  #67  
Old 03-24-2011, 01:17 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Originally Posted by dishboy View Post
Can you help me out here. Dealing in sq ft(1000sq ft) how many yards of compost would it take to raise the soil from 3% to 4%.
http://virginiadot.org/business/bu-compost.asp

Quote:
Originally Posted by dishboy View Post
Also short of doing a soil analysis is there a government or other site that would list SOM for soils in a particular county or region.
http://websoilsurvey.nrcs.usda.gov/app/HomePage.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by dishboy View Post
Not to debate which is better or even suitable,just noting your pricing above, those who search hard will find 5-3-2 chicken manure around $6/40lbs or 300 a ton.
Those numbers were simply an example of pricing for several meals available from an organic supplier in my area.
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  #68  
Old 03-24-2011, 01:19 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Originally Posted by phasthound View Post
Compare the cost (product, shipping, labor) to a large LCO:
22 tons of biologically active (tested by SFI) composted poultry manure, air dried and in spreadable granular form delivered at $8.50/50lb bag applied at up to 20lbs/1000 with the amount of compost (tested?) delivered and labor costs to topdress the same area at 1/4 inch.

I know the results of both (if it's good compost properly applied) will be similar.
Go ahead and crunch the numbers for us Barry. My source of compost is organic certified at $35/yard delivered.
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  #69  
Old 03-24-2011, 02:50 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phasthound View Post
Compare the cost (product, shipping, labor) to a large LCO:
22 tons of biologically active (tested by SFI) composted poultry manure, air dried and in spreadable granular form delivered at $8.50/50lb bag applied at up to 20lbs/1000 with the amount of compost (tested?) delivered and labor costs to topdress the same area at 1/4 inch.

I know the results of both (if it's good compost properly applied) will be similar.
Barry .... do you have anything yet?

It will cost me $28 in materials (delivered to the site) to cover 1000 sqft at 1/4" application depth. That is 0.8 yards of material.

How much will it cost me to get 0.8 yards of the product you mentioned delivered to the job site?

Last edited by Kiril; 03-24-2011 at 02:56 PM.
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  #70  
Old 03-24-2011, 03:47 PM
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phasthound phasthound is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
Barry .... do you have anything yet?

It will cost me $28 in materials (delivered to the site) to cover 1000 sqft at 1/4" application depth. That is 0.8 yards of material.

How much will it cost me to get 0.8 yards of the product you mentioned delivered to the job site?
It will cost nothing to bring the 20lbs/1000 needed as it will fit on the seat of the vehicle that also has one man and a push spreader to do the job.
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