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  #11  
Old 03-24-2011, 01:08 PM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
Axe .... these "topsoils" that are sold are really nothing more than a disturbed soil .... a mixing of O, A and sometimes B horizons depending on the regional soils. Now if you were to go get a big chunk of granite (as an example) and throw that on your lawn .... then you would be starting over.
The O, A, and B horizons are nothing more than 'hydrosorting' of the different sized particles. Who knows what they were in composition b4 that...

Is there a problem with forming a specific mixture of clay, sand, silt/OM? Most soil literature I've read says 45% + 45%+ 10%, respectively = the best soils, for most cultivated crops and landscapes...

I hve to agree, that a huge granite boulder would be a problem... unless it is used by the rock crusher to make driveways...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
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  #12  
Old 03-24-2011, 02:08 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
The O, A, and B horizons are nothing more than 'hydrosorting' of the different sized particles. Who knows what they were in composition b4 that...
"Hydrosorting", as you are calling it, is a fluvial process. Soil can develop horizons without "hydrosorting".

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Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
Is there a problem with forming a specific mixture of clay, sand, silt/OM? Most soil literature I've read says 45% + 45%+ 10%, respectively = the best soils, for most cultivated crops and landscapes...
Work with your native soils whenever possible. I generally try to avoid "topsoil" unless absolutely necessary for leveling purposes. If you must use it, then it should be tilled into the native soil if you are adding significant amounts.
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  #13  
Old 03-24-2011, 02:37 PM
quackgrass quackgrass is offline
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Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
Would it also be fair to say that, with high OM on the surface, that Microbes aid in creating structure that enhances the movement of that water?
Root growth contributes to an increase in SOM, especially with grasses. Not only that, they aid in incorporating OM deeper into the soil. Surface applied OM+fertilizer will increase your SOM more so than just applying OM.
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  #14  
Old 03-24-2011, 02:49 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Originally Posted by quackgrass View Post
Root growth contributes to an increase in SOM, especially with grasses. Not only that, they aid in incorporating OM deeper into the soil. Surface applied OM+fertilizer will increase your SOM more so than just applying OM.
Don't be so quick to assume that by adding fertilizer you will get an increase in SOM or SOC.

https://www.soils.org/publications/j...cles/36/6/1821
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  #15  
Old 03-24-2011, 03:36 PM
quackgrass quackgrass is offline
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Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
Don't be so quick to assume that by adding fertilizer you will get an increase in SOM or SOC.

https://www.soils.org/publications/j...cles/36/6/1821
First of all, I wasn't quick to assume - I picked this up by working on over 300 square miles of revegetation work on mined soils that lacked any SOM.

Second of all I was talking about Fertilizer + surface applied OM increasing SOM more so than just applied OM.

Lastly, You cited a study using synthetic N to a harvested crop, which has nothing to do with grasses which typically would not be harvested nor tilled.

But thanks.
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  #16  
Old 03-24-2011, 04:19 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Originally Posted by quackgrass View Post
First of all, I wasn't quick to assume - I picked this up by working on over 300 square miles of revegetation work on mined soils that lacked any SOM.

Second of all I was talking about Fertilizer + surface applied OM increasing SOM more so than just applied OM.

Lastly, You cited a study using synthetic N to a harvested crop, which has nothing to do with grasses which typically would not be harvested nor tilled.

But thanks.
You didn't read the study Quack.

https://www.soils.org/publications/j...cles/36/6/1821
The first decade of commercial fertilization brought a minor increase in soil C for previously unamended subplots, but this was followed by a decline despite dramatic escalation in the return of above- and belowground residues as corn populations were increased progressively to 69,000 plants ha−1 by 2003.
Corn is a monocot .... just like a grass. If clippings are bagged, managed turf is being "harvested" just like a crop. If you core aerate you are in fact "tilling" to a limited extent.

And if you weren't talking about synthetic N as your fertilizer input, what type of N or fertilizer were you talking about?

And lastly ..... the findings in the study are absolutely applicable to any managed system with synthetic N inputs. Just because it is Ag doesn't mean the results of the study can't be reasonably extrapolated to other managed systems.
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  #17  
Old 03-24-2011, 06:33 PM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Originally Posted by quackgrass View Post
Root growth contributes to an increase in SOM, especially with grasses. Not only that, they aid in incorporating OM deeper into the soil. Surface applied OM+fertilizer will increase your SOM more so than just applying OM.
That is one thing that I favor about Annual Ryegrass as a cover crop for weak soils... It will growlike crazy, both top and bottom... When it dies in the fall it is able to decay into the soil, making good conditions for next year crop of real grass...

I agree, that using N to produce more biomass that stays onsite, should help with overall OM...
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*
Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
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  #18  
Old 03-24-2011, 06:55 PM
quackgrass quackgrass is offline
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Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
You didn't read the study Quack.

https://www.soils.org/publications/j...cles/36/6/1821
The first decade of commercial fertilization brought a minor increase in soil C for previously unamended subplots, but this was followed by a decline despite dramatic escalation in the return of above- and belowground residues as corn populations were increased progressively to 69,000 plants ha−1 by 2003.
Corn is a monocot .... just like a grass. If clippings are bagged, managed turf is being "harvested" just like a crop. If you core aerate you are in fact "tilling" to a limited extent.

And if you weren't talking about synthetic N as your fertilizer input, what type of N or fertilizer were you talking about?

And lastly ..... the findings in the study are absolutely applicable to any managed system with synthetic N inputs. Just because it is Ag doesn't mean the results of the study can't be reasonably extrapolated to other managed systems.
Of course I wouldn't read a study about corn farming to determine SOM correlations to turf management. There is no reason to extrapolate because there are plenty of studies dealing directly with the issue, the only problem is that they prove you dead wrong - and that's why you chose to pick your study. You're a real credit to science Lord Kiril, nice work!
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  #19  
Old 03-24-2011, 07:11 PM
quackgrass quackgrass is offline
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Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
That is one thing that I favor about Annual Ryegrass as a cover crop for weak soils... It will growlike crazy, both top and bottom... When it dies in the fall it is able to decay into the soil, making good conditions for next year crop of real grass...

I agree, that using N to produce more biomass that stays onsite, should help with overall OM...
But do you agree that a turf field resembles a cornfield? I often can't tell which is which because they are so similar! The bare and tilled soil between rows and plants is so hard to distinguish, in fact I can't even tell the difference between corn and turf if its sitting on a plate, they are just too similar! People ask me if they are managed differently and I say no, they're both moocots.
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  #20  
Old 03-24-2011, 10:05 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Originally Posted by quackgrass View Post
Of course I wouldn't read a study about corn farming to determine SOM correlations to turf management. There is no reason to extrapolate because there are plenty of studies dealing directly with the issue, the only problem is that they prove you dead wrong - and that's why you chose to pick your study. You're a real credit to science Lord Kiril, nice work!
WOW! How does one respond to that level of ignorance? Answer ... you don't .... just let the person live in ignorance because that is where they are comfortable being.
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