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  #31  
Old 04-10-2011, 11:41 AM
Leo the Landscaper Leo the Landscaper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
P is everywhere and in just about everything organic... Grass clippings left on the lawn would hve about the same P as compost... If 1-2% P in anything is going to diminish the AMF, then again...

"What can be done to increase the population, health and vigor of AM Fungi?"
P might be everywhere but it is not everywhere in the same amount and in the same form of availability.

The issue with P is mobility and availability. P provided via organic fert to a perennial crop like a lawn is very difficult. P has low solubility so it does not move readily through the soil profile. That is why P pollution of surface water is such an issue. P really needs to be incorporated to the soil. So I would say synthetic P is safer for a perennial crop than organic P, but even P in synthetic fert is not that solubility

Mycorrhizae benefits plants by extending the surface area of the soil that the root can mine nutrients this is beneficial for the uptake of immobile nutrients like P. Plants must give up space and Carbon in this relationship in turn for the benefits provided by the Mycorrhizae. If one fertilizes to the point of providing enough P to the plant, the plant does not need this association and therefore there is no benefit in expending Carbon to develop the mycorrhizae relationship. Thus the plant will lose out on the other benefits of the relationship like increase in available water, inhibition of heavy metal uptake, etc.

So P does not directly damage the fungus it prohibits the forming of the relationship by providing the needs to the plant without them.

P is one of the main issue with organic fert. Plants take up 5-25% as much P as N. Manures contain about 25-50% as much P as N. So to fert with manure based fertilizers based on a soil test N. You will be over applying P, which has negative environmental impact. Remember P does not move through the soil so it is lost via surface water. Surface water makes its way in my part of the country either to The Great Lakes or the Gulf of Mexico. Unlike soil, whose most limiting nutrient is N waters most limiting nutrient is P. So when you add P you see a dramatic impact. It causes eutrophication, which is accelerated growth of algae. This mass algae bloom then dies and decomposes causing hypoxia, as the O2 is consumed by the decomposers. So to say that organic manures are safe alternative because they are natural is incorrect. They need to be carefully applied and managed as synthetic fert. I would argue that in a perennial crop like turf synthetic fert might be more environmentally friendly when used by those than don't fully understand these concepts.

One more thing to remember about organic fertilizers like manure. Their source of N is from an animal, whose source of N was agricultural crop whose source of N was a synthetic fert.

I am not anti organic, but we cant demonize synthetic fert because it is still a necessary tool.

Sorry for ranting.
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  #32  
Old 04-11-2011, 09:44 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo the Landscaper View Post
P might be everywhere but it is not everywhere in the same amount and in the same form of availability.

The issue with P is mobility and availability. P provided via organic fert to a perennial crop like a lawn is very difficult. P has low solubility so it does not move readily through the soil profile. That is why P pollution of surface water is such an issue. P really needs to be incorporated to the soil. So I would say synthetic P is safer for a perennial crop than organic P, but even P in synthetic fert is not that solubility

Mycorrhizae benefits plants by extending the surface area of the soil that the root can mine nutrients this is beneficial for the uptake of immobile nutrients like P. Plants must give up space and Carbon in this relationship in turn for the benefits provided by the Mycorrhizae. If one fertilizes to the point of providing enough P to the plant, the plant does not need this association and therefore there is no benefit in expending Carbon to develop the mycorrhizae relationship. Thus the plant will lose out on the other benefits of the relationship like increase in available water, inhibition of heavy metal uptake, etc.

So P does not directly damage the fungus it prohibits the forming of the relationship by providing the needs to the plant without them.

P is one of the main issue with organic fert. Plants take up 5-25% as much P as N. Manures contain about 25-50% as much P as N. So to fert with manure based fertilizers based on a soil test N. You will be over applying P, which has negative environmental impact. Remember P does not move through the soil so it is lost via surface water. Surface water makes its way in my part of the country either to The Great Lakes or the Gulf of Mexico. Unlike soil, whose most limiting nutrient is N waters most limiting nutrient is P. So when you add P you see a dramatic impact. It causes eutrophication, which is accelerated growth of algae. This mass algae bloom then dies and decomposes causing hypoxia, as the O2 is consumed by the decomposers. So to say that organic manures are safe alternative because they are natural is incorrect. They need to be carefully applied and managed as synthetic fert. I would argue that in a perennial crop like turf synthetic fert might be more environmentally friendly when used by those than don't fully understand these concepts.

One more thing to remember about organic fertilizers like manure. Their source of N is from an animal, whose source of N was agricultural crop whose source of N was a synthetic fert.

I am not anti organic, but we cant demonize synthetic fert because it is still a necessary tool.

Sorry for ranting.
So you are answering the question about increasing the population, health and vigor of AM Fungi as, "Be sure no P is added to the soil..."
Is that correct, and there is nothing more to do as far as you know?

Your second subject about waterways recieving P runoff from manure is strictly manure... If the manure itself ends up in the water, then yes, it is as bad as leaves, decaying in the water...
But to say that P goes into the water short of an erosion event, is untrue... N is water soluable and will dissolve and follow a "Stream" to the lowest point of a lawn, But P, once bound to a site. stays on that site...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
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  #33  
Old 04-11-2011, 09:53 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckNC View Post
Howdy folks,
I'm not trying to a wiseguy or
P/O anybody, nor start a fight.

But I see, LC companies bragging they are organic
and they use 5% chicken manure and 95% chemical fert.
Granular. I see people writing about microbial activity
and not once have I seen anybody writing about Mycorrhiza.
I started study Mycorrhiza about 25 years ago, and to be
honest it didn't hake any difference if you use organic or chemical
fert., but if your Mycorrhiza levels are low your grass will never take
in the N-P-K values or micro nutrients. So I dug into the root
zone to check for mycorrhiza. Have You?...
I was waiting all along for you to say something in an answer to the question and some real discussion but you seem to have leaked out as well... So you ARE a wiseguy, aren't you...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
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  #34  
Old 04-11-2011, 10:50 AM
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starry night starry night is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo the Landscaper View Post
................

One more thing to remember about organic fertilizers like manure. Their source of N is from an animal, whose source of N was agricultural crop whose source of N was a synthetic fert.
So you are implying that soil biology then processes this manure in the same way that it processes synthetic fertilizers? Or, otherwise, what is your point?
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  #35  
Old 04-11-2011, 11:25 AM
OrganicsMaine OrganicsMaine is offline
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From what I gleaned from Leo's post is that he is still looking at the organic approach as he does a synthetic approach. If we were applying manure or even various composts in place of a synthetic fert, then he is correct in many ways.

However, if we are using a manure/compost to boost the organic matter of a given soil profile, and then using some form of CT or ACT or AACT or Extract...or whatever, this is where the organic approach is more environmentally friendly. By building the microbes/fungi etc., and providing them with enough food, we are dramatically reducing the need for the fertilizer "programs" that we are all so addicted to. Paradigm shift, but doable in my opinion!
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  #36  
Old 04-11-2011, 03:49 PM
Tim Wilson Tim Wilson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrganicsMaine View Post
From what I gleaned from Leo's post is that he is still looking at the organic approach as he does a synthetic approach. If we were applying manure or even various composts in place of a synthetic fert, then he is correct in many ways.

However, if we are using a manure/compost to boost the organic matter of a given soil profile, and then using some form of CT or ACT or AACT or Extract...or whatever, this is where the organic approach is more environmentally friendly. By building the microbes/fungi etc., and providing them with enough food, we are dramatically reducing the need for the fertilizer "programs" that we are all so addicted to. Paradigm shift, but doable in my opinion!
To quote Barry 'Bingo!!!' Leo: Manure is NOT compost.
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  #37  
Old 04-11-2011, 11:14 PM
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JDUtah JDUtah is offline
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Ironically Manure has much better (more concentrated) green grass nutrients (nitrogen) than compost. If applying based on N needs, manure is MUCH more favorable to AMF than compost.
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  #38  
Old 04-12-2011, 07:38 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Originally Posted by JDUtah View Post
Ironically Manure has much better (more concentrated) green grass nutrients (nitrogen) than compost. If applying based on N needs, manure is MUCH more favorable to AMF than compost.
The gardeners out here in rural America still use green manure tea, for fertilizer... Works great for gardens but not aesthetically acceptible for lawns... besides, you would have to print warnings about not eating the grass or rolling around in the lawn for 2 months...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
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  #39  
Old 04-12-2011, 08:25 AM
Leo the Landscaper Leo the Landscaper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
So you are answering the question about increasing the population, health and vigor of AM Fungi as, "Be sure no P is added to the soil..."
Is that correct, and there is nothing more to do as far as you know?
You should add P based on a soil test. I am simply explaining the concept behind why P is "bad" for mycorrhizae.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
Your second subject about waterways recieving P runoff from manure is strictly manure... If the manure itself ends up in the water, then yes, it is as bad as leaves, decaying in the water...
But to say that P goes into the water short of an erosion event, is untrue... N is water soluable and will dissolve and follow a "Stream" to the lowest point of a lawn, But P, once bound to a site. stays on that site...

What I am saying is P moves with surface water because it is not soluable. N moves down into ground water due to its solubility. Due to P's poor solubility surface applications have a tendency to move offsite with surface water. If P is incoprorated than yes once it binds with Ca or Fe it tends not to move. N typically pollutes ground water P typically polutes surface water.
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  #40  
Old 04-12-2011, 08:33 AM
Leo the Landscaper Leo the Landscaper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
So you are answering the question about increasing the population, health and vigor of AM Fungi as, "Be sure no P is added to the soil..."
Is that correct, and there is nothing more to do as far as you know?

Your second subject about waterways recieving P runoff from manure is strictly manure... If the manure itself ends up in the water, then yes, it is as bad as leaves, decaying in the water...
But to say that P goes into the water short of an erosion event, is untrue... N is water soluable and will dissolve and follow a "Stream" to the lowest point of a lawn, But P, once bound to a site. stays on that site...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Wilson View Post
To quote Barry 'Bingo!!!' Leo: Manure is NOT compost.
I dont think I said manure was compost
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