Organic? Really?

[Leo the Landscaper]

Originally Posted by dirtandhoops

So you are implying that soil biology then processes this manure in the same way that it processes synthetic fertilizers? Or, otherwise, what is your point?

No that is not my point. The required soil biology and envrionmental factors are varied based on source and type of fert used.

My point is the use of manures as a substitue for synthetic fert is not "green" as one might think. The source of N and P for that matter come from synthetic fert at some point.

Now that is not to say that the luxury of a nice lawn is best acquired via a reused source of N and P via manures from a more important practice of food production. I just think people should have the whole picture.

[Kiril]

Originally Posted by Leo the Landscaper

What I am saying is P moves with surface water because it is not soluable. N moves down into ground water due to its solubility. Due to P's poor solubility surface applications have a tendency to move offsite with surface water. If P is incoprorated than yes once it binds with Ca or Fe it tends not to move. N typically pollutes ground water P typically polutes surface water.

Nitrogen (nitrate specifically) is more mobile in soils due to its charge. Solubility is not the deciding factor in ion mobility. Any ion in solution is at risk of leaching regardless of the charge .... and any ion be it in solution, bound or precipitated is at risk of erosion/runoff. If erosion occurs then you have the potential for any/all ions to be lost.

[Kiril]

Originally Posted by Leo the Landscaper

No that is not my point. The required soil biology and envrionmental factors are varied based on source and type of fert used.

My point is the use of manures as a substitue for synthetic fert is not "green" as one might think. The source of N and P for that matter come from synthetic fert at some point.

Now that is not to say that the luxury of a nice lawn is best acquired via a reused source of N and P via manures from a more important practice of food production. I just think people should have the whole picture.

I'm not following the purpose of "the whole picture" here. Manure is a waste product ... it will be generated regardless of it being used or not .... something that is not true for a synthetic fertilizer.

Should I:

1) Produce more synthetic ferts
2) Use viable waste products

Seems to me the "green" choice is obvious.

[Leo the Landscaper]

Kiril,

I agree with everything you said in both posts. I think we have said the same thing differently.

I agree once a nutrient is in the soil the solubility of that nutrient, i.e. the likelihood of it being in solution, is largely dependent on its charge, also dependent on environmental and biological factors as well.

I also agree with your perspective of manure being a waste product and therefore its use being green.

It just concerns me to hear people discuss the use of manure based fert and manure based compost in a perennial crop like turf and not not have a full grasp of the effects it can have on the environment.

I am raising points to challenge people to think. I hope I have done this without coming of as an a**

[Kiril]

Originally Posted by Leo the Landscaper

It just concerns me to hear people discuss the use of manure based fert and manure based compost in a perennial crop like turf and not not have a full grasp of the effects it can have on the environment.

I do agree anything topically applied runs a higher risk of erosion, be it synthetic or organic .... but consider this. A properly managed soil (read properly managed SOM) will have better nutrient/ion retention and potentially higher steady state infiltration rates. These two factors will lead to a net reduction in both leaching and runoff losses.

[Tim Wilson]

Originally Posted by Leo the Landscaper

I dont think I said manure was compost

You were describing the use of manure, at least it seemed so. Manure based compost is very different from manure. It is very stable and chances of leaching (being soluble) are extremely minimal. I have had both homemade manure based and vegetation based compost properly finished and supposed experts could not tell the difference.

[Smallaxe]

Originally Posted by Tim Wilson

... I have had both homemade manure based and vegetation based compost properly finished and supposed experts could not tell the difference.

Manure IS digested vegetable matter, so their should be no difference in the finished product...

What do they call anaerobic decomposition? Like the stuff you find in a lake from rotted leaves etc... Manure is anerobic decomp, an the stuff in the lakes and rivers smells about the same.

When it is digested completely under water it no longer smell that way, just like compost doesn't have the rotting smell... So it iessentially compostted, but is it called compost?

[starry night]

Originally Posted by Smallaxe

Manure IS digested vegetable matter, so their should be no difference in the finished product... :

Axe: I know you love thinking through these things so ......the finished product might be different depending on who is doing the digesting, enzymes and microbes in the soil or enzymes and microbes in an animals digestive tract.

[Smallaxe]

Originally Posted by dirtandhoops

Axe: I know you love thinking through these things so ......the finished product might be different depending on who is doing the digesting, enzymes and microbes in the soil or enzymes and microbes in an animals digestive tract.

Good point...

Eventually though, it all becomes humates or basic chunks of Carbon... Is that true?

[JDUtah]

Originally Posted by Smallaxe

Manure IS digested vegetable matter, so their should be no difference in the finished product...

What do they call anaerobic decomposition? Like the stuff you find in a lake from rotted leaves etc... Manure is anerobic decomp, an the stuff in the lakes and rivers smells about the same.

When it is digested completely under water it no longer smell that way, just like compost doesn't have the rotting smell... So it iessentially compostted, but is it called compost?

Many times it is called compost. Not 8 miles away form me are some drudged ponds that have a huge pile of "compost" that they are selling in bulk. Pretty good stuff.