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  #1  
Old 03-23-2011, 08:17 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Soil Structure

I think it might be a good time to revisit the most important aspect of "organic lawncare' and that is soil...
We are going on and on about ferts, which is the primary question, but we are not 'integrating' those ferts into the soil very well.

Compost builds soil structure and reduces the amount of ferts by providing CE sites, holds water while increasing perculation and drainage???


None of that is true, if the irrigation is improperly handled...
None of that is true, if there is a perpetual suface growing of thatch...

Soil texture and temperature would effect HOW the irrigation should be handled, but these ideas, are never thought important enough to be considered when discussing the use of ferts and reaching the point of "zero inputs"...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
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  #2  
Old 03-23-2011, 08:47 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
Compost builds soil structure and reduces the amount of ferts by providing CE sites, holds water while increasing perculation and drainage???
Are you asking a question or making a statement?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
None of that is true, if the irrigation is improperly handled...
None of that is true, if there is a perpetual suface growing of thatch...

Soil texture and temperature would effect HOW the irrigation should be handled, but these ideas, are never thought important enough to be considered when discussing the use of ferts and reaching the point of "zero inputs"...
I am unsure where you are going with this. Can you expand?
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Old 03-23-2011, 10:25 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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What got me thinking of this again was the responses given to c2weech on that last thread...

It was all about fertilizers and Paradise touched on how compost can help a lawn but I don't see that there is a comprehensive program being promotted on this forum...

For exa. Kiril, I know you are one to think seriously about irrigation. But there is no real connection between compost on top of the ground and roots growing deeper in the soil and the soil actually become 'fertile' over time, at more than an inch under the real thatch layer...

So it is hard to just put it in a question, with an answer, bcause I believe we should be constructing ecosystems for turf , rather than jut throwing stuff on and concerning ourselves with what stuff is good, not good, unsustainable, etc...

The stuff itself is only secondary to the eco-system's dynamics, IMO... I think we need to look at a bigger picture by now, is all I'm saying...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
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  #4  
Old 03-23-2011, 11:24 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
For exa. Kiril, I know you are one to think seriously about irrigation. But there is no real connection between compost on top of the ground and roots growing deeper in the soil and the soil actually become 'fertile' over time, at more than an inch under the real thatch layer...
Surface applied organic matter will will move through the soil profile over time, even in a heavy clay. How far and how fast depends on the site and environment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
So it is hard to just put it in a question, with an answer, bcause I believe we should be constructing ecosystems for turf , rather than jut throwing stuff on and concerning ourselves with what stuff is good, not good, unsustainable, etc...

The stuff itself is only secondary to the eco-system's dynamics, IMO... I think we need to look at a bigger picture by now, is all I'm saying...
For me, the bigger picture is building regionally appropriate landscapes. These landscapes are naturally suited for the regional climate and soils, and by default require substantially less inputs to maintain at acceptable levels than the exotic regionally inappropriate alternative.
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  #5  
Old 03-23-2011, 12:09 PM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
Surface applied organic matter will will move through the soil profile over time, even in a heavy clay. How far and how fast depends on the site and environment...
Here is a good place for a specific question... If that is true:

How does that happen? and what can we do to expedite that action?

Secondarily:

If there is already a real thatch problem, why does it not just encourage more roots growing into a lovely medium such as compost, right there in the thatch? Especially if a N fert is applied near that same time period?
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
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  #6  
Old 03-23-2011, 12:57 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
Here is a good place for a specific question... If that is true:

How does that happen? and what can we do to expedite that action?
Soil pedogenesis. -> climate + living organisms + parent material + topography + time

Core aerating, earth worms & microbial decomposition and irrigation are probably the primarily ways to expedite the process ... irrigation (or water in the soil and water movement through the profile) being the biggest factor. That said .... there is the trade-off between conserving water and building a soil .... and you have to determine which is more important for the site in question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
Secondarily:

If there is already a real thatch problem, why does it not just encourage more roots growing into a lovely medium such as compost, right there in the thatch? Especially if a N fert is applied near that same time period?
A significant thatch layer is a real problem and as it grows in thickness, it will likely result in more roots in the thatch layer than in the soil.
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  #7  
Old 03-23-2011, 02:44 PM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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So one little step at a time:

Does it make any sense to add compost to a lawn that is heavily infested with real thatch, unless it has been aerated first?
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
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  #8  
Old 03-23-2011, 03:53 PM
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starry night starry night is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
Soil pedogenesis. -> climate + living organisms + parent material + topography + time

Core aerating, earth worms & microbial decomposition and irrigation are probably the primarily ways to expedite the process ... irrigation (or water in the soil and water movement through the profile) being the biggest factor. .
But, isn't time the factor that we cannot affect. Core aeration, irrigation, etc. will improve current soils but actual soil formation (pedogenesis) from start to finish takes more than our lifetimes. Correct?
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Last edited by starry night; 03-23-2011 at 03:58 PM.
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  #9  
Old 03-23-2011, 04:19 PM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
So one little step at a time:

Does it make any sense to add compost to a lawn that is heavily infested with real thatch, unless it has been aerated first?
OK, stupid question... No headway on this subject at all... sell the fertilizers and the proaganda... why should I care???
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
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  #10  
Old 03-23-2011, 04:21 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
So one little step at a time:

Does it make any sense to add compost to a lawn that is heavily infested with real thatch, unless it has been aerated first?
Not really. If that thatch is that bad it needs to be dealt with either by aerating or verti-mow.
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