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Old 07-17-2011, 11:22 PM
diyer999 diyer999 is offline
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Older vs Newer 2 cycle engines

I read comments by landscapers that often say they like a certain classic model of power equipment, because that it always has been so reliable and durable ... trouble-free ... they just dont mak'em like they used to. They say that they can run regular gas, whereas they can't do that with the new stuff. The reason given is that the EPA has interfered too much with the emissions of power tools, and as a result the equipment cannot function as it once did and now there are starting issues, storage issues, performance issues, etc. Others say it is the increased alcohol in the fuel. But if the newer two stroke equipment is designed to run on a higher alcohol content in the fuel, then shouldn't it be the older equipment that has those problems?
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Old 07-18-2011, 06:19 AM
Roger Roger is offline
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I'm not sure where you are buying gasoline, but I am doubting that anybody is putting alcohol in the gasoline. Alcohol mixes might work fine for Funny Cars on the drag racing circuit, but am doubting you will find it in OPE.
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Old 07-18-2011, 08:26 AM
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Merkava_4 Merkava_4 is offline
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Roger, I think he means ethanol. . .
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Old 07-18-2011, 12:39 PM
diyer999 diyer999 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger View Post
I'm not sure where you are buying gasoline, but I am doubting that anybody is putting alcohol in the gasoline. Alcohol mixes might work fine for Funny Cars on the drag racing circuit, but am doubting you will find it in OPE.
The notice is right on the gasolines pumps that it contains Ethanol. Ethanol is alcohol. Methanol is an alcohol. Methanol is the stuff used in drag racers. Now you know.
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Old 07-18-2011, 12:46 PM
diyer999 diyer999 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkava_4 View Post
Roger, I think he means ethanol. . .
Well, to me the technical word didnt matter, as the chemical is alcohol. I just understand the nature of the chemical as one and the same. But yes, it is often referred to as Ethanol.

So, do you have an explanation of the issue? ... Equipment dealers are talking about this subject all the time. In fact, they are using it extensivley to void warranty claims now, saying that the landscaper used regular gas that has a higher alcohol content, or didnt use the newer design oils for the newr higher alcohol content fuels.
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Old 07-18-2011, 03:27 PM
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grassman177 grassman177 is offline
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i have no idea either, great thread.

i know our newer machines dont like the heat as much...all of them run worse when over 90 degrees. the older models never had issues at all, ever. curious to why

we tried the higher octane gas and had no dif at all in performance as we were told it would. so why bother paying more $$ for nothing right?

again, our only issue right now is in the heat
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Old 07-18-2011, 06:20 PM
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So far I see little difference between old echo 2 stroke engines and the new ones. Knock on wood but the new series one ring echo trimmer has run 4 years on 87 octane. We now have a bunch in service. On the other hand I have about 10 older echo units and those are running fine also. A lot of rubber and plastic parts are the same so....the very most important thing is those adj that echo have on their carb. If the epa ever makes them weld the holes shut then 2 stroke will be finished.
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Old 07-18-2011, 09:09 PM
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rob7233 rob7233 is offline
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www.Pure-gas.org

But if the newer two stroke equipment is designed to run on a higher alcohol content in the fuel, then shouldn't it be the older equipment that has those problems?

Alcohol = Ethanol by nature is a great cleaner also make an engine run hotter and you get less energy per gallon than pure gas.

Alcohol drys out gaskets, softens rubber fuel lines, eats primer bulbs and combines readily with water/water vapor/humidity to separate out from the fuel in the tank while settling on the bottom to be picked up by the fuel filter.

Remember oil is mixed with gas in 2 cycle or 4 Mix (hybrid) engine. On the first start in the morning on a humid, summer day, the fuel filter can pick up this alcohol/water mix and sends it into the combustion chamber. Since alcohol is a solvent, it washes away some of the oil in the mix, while the water vapor once heated, can pit the walls of the cylinder. Or maybe the engine won't start at all.

You can start out with a dry start and end up with a scored cylinder especially in a already leaned out EPA engine along with the alcohol is burning even hotter(on the hottest part of your Summer day!).

Guys do what you can and shake/stir your fuel tanks, 1st thing in the morning on your handheld equipment. No additive is going to totally protect against all the negative effects of Ethanol. BTW: the Ethanol gets added in to the Pure gas at the distributor and not the refinery because it has a very short shelf life once mixed. It's been documented, sometimes they don't mix it right. You might just get 20% instead of 10%. You beginning to get the picture?? But wait there's more. Now, I want to get back to the OP above question.

Newer models are more resistant to the destructive effect of Ethanol. Older, equipment (old school) weren't all leaned out by the EPA and CARB regulations and none had Catalytic converter mufflers! However, the older models were never designed to handle alcohol. When carb gaskets dry out they shrink and create gaps that allow air in. Rubber parts breaking down throw off small particulate matter to clog up little ports/passages in the carbs. Fuel tank grommets shrink allow air in and lose vacuum.

Since Ethanol/alcohol is a great cleaner it causes all deposits in used equipment to come loose into the carb. That also includes the water/alcohol mix sludge too. Now comes the part about the newer engines...

Newer engines are always subject to even more stringent EPA restrictions forcing them to be designed to run even more leaner and cleaner. To get an engine to not run like crap you have to design with closer & closer tolerances(smaller with tighter spaces). Those smaller passageways in the newer carbs in the newer equipment models tend to get clogged up easier/sooner. Now some in the government want to allow E15 instead of E10. It can get even worse.

So, what the answer? It's not all clear but what I do works for me. See, I run old school Shindaiwa equipment ie. T27, T270, T260 & EB630 blowers. I use straight up, Pure Gasoline. No Ethanol in it! There is no chemical additive that will help me.

I pay about 30-40 cents more a gallon but don't need to pay for any added chemicals. If I need longer term storage? Just add Stabil (marine grade) or run dry and run some Seafoam through the equipment every once in a while.

But Rob, where can I find Pure Gas in my area? > Most marinas have it but it's available at a gas station about 10 miles away from me. I found it thru the below website. I take several Jerry cans that I bought for the Hurricanes(that we get here in FL) and fill em' up.

Go to www.Pure-gas.org for a location near you.
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Old 07-18-2011, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob7233 View Post
[B][I]Newer models are more resistant to the destructive effect of Ethanol. Older, equipment (old school) weren't all leaned out by the EPA and CARB regulations and none had Catalytic converter mufflers! However, the older models were never designed to handle alcohol. When carb gaskets dry out they shrink and create gaps that allow air in. Rubber parts breaking down throw off small particulate matter to clog up little ports/passages in the carbs. Fuel tank grommets shrink allow air in and lose vacuum.
Go to www.Pure-gas.org for a location near you.
You need to factor in field experience with theory......I run a lot of old and new machines and there isn't a significant difference. By the way those fuel grommets are exactly the same and they still get ate up on the new ones. Maybe Echo are just better over all. I don't use any additives.
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  #10  
Old 07-18-2011, 10:30 PM
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Merkava_4 Merkava_4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diyer999 View Post
So, do you have an explanation of the issue? ...
The biggest difference between the old 2-cycle engines and the newer engines is the accessibility to mixture
adjustments. The older engines had their a HI and LOW speed mixture needles readily accessible.
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