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  #51  
Old 08-16-2011, 06:16 PM
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indplstim indplstim is online now
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Lol whatever you say Mr. Jim, I guess you have the game on lock and everything figured out..... I'm not gonna bang my head on the wall either! Carry on brothers!
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  #52  
Old 08-16-2011, 06:17 PM
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cpllawncare cpllawncare is offline
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Originally Posted by nepatsfan View Post
And every kid deserves a trophy and there should be no honor roll because it makes the kids feel bad who don't get on it. No keeping score anymore everything is for fun.
My pastor gave a whole sermon on this very subject recently, how parents are doing such a disservice to their children by letting them believe there are no consequences for not working hard, and life is all about having fun all the time and everyone is always a winner no matter how hard you work. I think it's pathetic how some parents are raising their kids these days, and apparently I'm not the only one. Sorry for getting on the soap box.
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  #53  
Old 08-16-2011, 06:19 PM
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indplstim indplstim is online now
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JimLewis " If you see a guy who is gleefully ignorant that he is about to step in a big pile of crap and twist their ankle in the same spot you just stepped in a few months ago do you just tell him, "Awesome, glad you're happy!" No!!!". This is you calling the op ignorant, I'm not going to post on this topic anymore.
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  #54  
Old 08-16-2011, 06:23 PM
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JimLewis JimLewis is offline
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Come on..... You just started a great debate here. I defended myself and my position and now you're not even going to try to defend yours and provide any kind of response? You're just going to bow out now??? Why'd you come in here and start making all sorts of claims if you didn't want to have the nerve to stick around and have a real discussion about it? Were you just trying to stir up the pot a little?
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  #55  
Old 08-17-2011, 08:19 AM
PaperCutter PaperCutter is online now
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Picking apart everyone's posts and saying "See? You were mean, right there!" is ridiculous. The fact is that everyone who has voiced concerns that five days is a little ambitious has been there and is getting that same feeling reading this. That memory of the knot in the stomach, being eight days into the job and nowhere near done, and trying to figure out a way - any way - to make it out of this job and at the very least break even, ideally without having to go to the homeowner and say "I screwed up, I need more money to finish."

Someone who has been down the road before and cares enough to stop someone from making the same mistakes he or she did is a mentor. Someone who just smiles, pats your head, and tells you everything you ever do will be AWESOME! because you're such a great kid... that's grandma.
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  #56  
Old 08-17-2011, 08:36 AM
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cpllawncare cpllawncare is offline
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^^^ so very true! I've had some guys help me out when they saw that I was going down a bad path and am very thankful for the mentoring it is how we should all be these days. Due to the economy, there are a lot of guys out there that are having to reinvent themselves and need a good mentor, instead of someone tearing them down. I know because I'm one myself. So far this site alone has been a tremendous help and have said it many times "Thank you"
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  #57  
Old 08-17-2011, 11:10 AM
Votum Gardens LLC Votum Gardens LLC is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimLewis View Post
Well, first of all, I don't think I called him ignorant. If I did, go back and show me where I did. Because I can't find it.

Although I would concur with that assessment. According to the dictionary, the word 'Ignorant' means, "1. Lacking education or knowledge. 2. Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge 3. Unaware or Uninformed." It's not like you're calling someone a bad name. You're just saying the person isn't that knowledgeable about a certain subject. I would say that just for the fact that the OP said he'd never landed a job like this before that - by definition - means he's a little ignorant in terms of doing jobs this big.



Again, I think you're mis-characterizing what I said a little. But I didn't say that. He said he landed this huge job on a $1.5Mil. property (which we have to assume is a pretty big place) and listed a LOT of different projects he was going to do on said property and then mentioned he thought it would be done in a week. So either this is a REALLY TINY $1.5Mil property or he is just 10x faster than the rest of us are. Because those estimates don't add up at all in the real world. Anyone who's done jobs like this would tell you - and a bunch of us HAVE told him - that it is going to take way longer than that. There are just way too many things going on. Unless it's a 3-sprinkler-head sprinkler system and a 50 sq. ft. flagstone pathway and a 100 sq. ft. sod lawn, and (15) 1 gal. plants, and a tiny little rock wall and on and on and on..... I'm sorry. There's just no way that's going to happen. Even if you're hella fast and taking every short cut possible you still can't fully landscape and hardscape and irrigate a property like that in 5 days. Just doesn't happen. That's all any of us are saying.




No. I said if you're expecting this place to be all bubbles and flowers and nice happy comments where nobody ever gives you any real honest advice - than you should probably go elsewhere. Because this forum will NEVER BE LIKE THAT. Hate to break it to ya.



Nope. But he gave a pretty decent description. $1.5 Mil property, just North of Atlanta, GA. According to Zillow, homes in that area that are in the $1.5 Mil. price range are all around 44,000 sq. ft. or 1 acre. So until the OP clarifies how big of a property he's referring to exactly, the rest of us can only conclude it's about the same size as most of the rest of the $1.5Mil homes in that area. I can't imagine it's a huge $1.5 Mil home on a 5000 sq. ft. lot. That seems very unlikely. But even if that was true, then I guess this job isn't anything to really be very excited about then because then it would be a super small project.

He did say that there would be a 200'x4' retaining wall. So that tells me right there it's a pretty decent size property. He also said 400 plants. So again, that can't be a small lot. Talked about a lot of sq. footage in hardscape. So yah, I think we got the idea how big of a property this is. But since he's not been responding to anyone's questions then we can't really know for sure. All we can go off is his initial postings.



No. But it doesn't matter, really. I have crews that are some of the better install crews in my state. Most of them been with me a good 7-8 years now and are about as fast and good quality as you can get. And there's no way even my experienced guys could ever touch a job that big in just 5 days. Even if we took short cuts. It just isn't possible. No matter how good you are.



I think some of you guys are just a little too sensitive and don't like it when people tell you the cold hard truth. You'd rather people be all nice and bubbly and always saying nice positive things to you all the time than tell you the cold hard truth.

I do understand what you're saying, though - in general. You might be surprised to hear that. That's one of the reasons I don't post a lot of jobs on Lawnsite anymore. We do a lot of nice work but I don't post our jobs as much here anymore because I don't always care to listen to how some guy in another state half way across the country would have used a different paver or done the water feature a little differently or would have used a different kind of step. That gets old, I agree. Sometimes you just want people to say nice things and not get any criticism at all - even if it is meant as constructive criticism. I get that.

But the reality is that every time I've posted something on Lawnsite and didn't always like all the replies I got, I almost always learned something. And on many many occasions, the comments I got on a project that I thought turned out amazing really made me think hard about how I might do it differently next time. And so I learned something. And my work improved! As difficult as it was to hear, the criticism helped! That's the thing you gotta learn about Lawnsite. Most people are trying to help. Not everyone. There are some trolls here who just like to pick apart people's work but never post any of their own work. And, honestly, those guys are the ones who keep me from posting more often. But most of the rest of the people who post comments really aren't intending to be negative. They are trying to help you see that there are other, better, ways of doing it. Or help you see that you're really underestimating yourself. Or help you see that you're in over your head. And it's never fun to hear that but that doesn't mean it's not true. You have to take a step back sometimes and realize that sometimes these are guys who have done what you're just starting to do. And maybe they've done it hundreds of times. And maybe you ought to listen up!



I don't think anyone jumped down his a$$ about it. We were just laying out the cold hard truth. It would be like someone going into the lawn care forum and saying, "Yes! Just landed my biggest mowing account ever! It's 3 acres and they want me to start right away. I figure it will take me about 15 minutes a week on my ZTR to mow it all down. I'm gonna make bank on this one!" ............ No.....no....no. You're not. What the heck are you thinking? I don't care what kind of mower you have. That is totally unreasonable and you need to wake up to reality, kid!

Sometimes you gotta give someone a cold hard wake up call when they are posting stuff like that. That's all we did here.



And I'll have to call you out on that one too. It is helping if the person giving it out has specific experience doing exactly what you're talking about doing and offering some suggestions as to how you might be a little off track. You can chose to ignore that help. You can act like a baby and say, "I wasn't asking for your help! Go away!!!" But it's still help. It's just a matter of whether you choose to accept it or remain ignorant. You can do the latter and learn the hard way. That's how I learned most things I know. But I'll tell you from experience, it's not the best way to learn. Much better to learn from others who have done it than to just beat your head against the wall thinking you know everything. That's why these days if I run into a paver challenge that I haven't had before or a new lighting problem or an irrigation problem - I go to those forums and ask the pros who have had some serious experience. I do that first. Because it's a whole lot easier learning that way than how I used to learn for the first 5-10 years of my business.
Very Well Said!!!
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  #58  
Old 08-17-2011, 12:01 PM
Mark Oomkes Mark Oomkes is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indplstim View Post
Calling the op ignorant, implying his standards must be crap in order to meet his own time expectations isn't being negative? Telling me to find another forum isn't negative? Have you seen the jobsite in question? Have u seen how well this man and his crew work? Honesty is great and this forum is awesome with the info avaliable, in my time here(3 years reading, 1 year posting) I have noticed a lot of negativity and infighting on this board. Go re-read this thread, does it sound negative to you? Your post especially! Sure from the outside looking in, it may appear that all he listed seems unreasonable in a 5 day work week. Why jump down the guys ass about it, I'd abandon the tread too. Its not helping, if no one asks for your help!
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I was going to reply to the ignorant thing, because I always get jumped on for calling peeps ignorant, but Jim did a fantastic job of answering so much more diplomatically than I would have.

Wouldn't you agree Chaz and MJD?

Anyways, Tim, you say that if someone doesn't ask for help, someone else shouldn't give it. So if someone is walking across a street and about to get hit by a semi, no one should warn the person of the approaching danger?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimLewis View Post
Well, first of all, I don't think I called him ignorant. If I did, go back and show me where I did. Because I can't find it.

Although I would concur with that assessment. According to the dictionary, the word 'Ignorant' means, "1. Lacking education or knowledge. 2. Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge 3. Unaware or Uninformed." It's not like you're calling someone a bad name. You're just saying the person isn't that knowledgeable about a certain subject. I would say that just for the fact that the OP said he'd never landed a job like this before that - by definition - means he's a little ignorant in terms of doing jobs this big.



Again, I think you're mis-characterizing what I said a little. But I didn't say that. He said he landed this huge job on a $1.5Mil. property (which we have to assume is a pretty big place) and listed a LOT of different projects he was going to do on said property and then mentioned he thought it would be done in a week. So either this is a REALLY TINY $1.5Mil property or he is just 10x faster than the rest of us are. Because those estimates don't add up at all in the real world. Anyone who's done jobs like this would tell you - and a bunch of us HAVE told him - that it is going to take way longer than that. There are just way too many things going on. Unless it's a 3-sprinkler-head sprinkler system and a 50 sq. ft. flagstone pathway and a 100 sq. ft. sod lawn, and (15) 1 gal. plants, and a tiny little rock wall and on and on and on..... I'm sorry. There's just no way that's going to happen. Even if you're hella fast and taking every short cut possible you still can't fully landscape and hardscape and irrigate a property like that in 5 days. Just doesn't happen. That's all any of us are saying.




No. I said if you're expecting this place to be all bubbles and flowers and nice happy comments where nobody ever gives you any real honest advice - than you should probably go elsewhere. Because this forum will NEVER BE LIKE THAT. Hate to break it to ya.



Nope. But he gave a pretty decent description. $1.5 Mil property, just North of Atlanta, GA. According to Zillow, homes in that area that are in the $1.5 Mil. price range are all around 44,000 sq. ft. or 1 acre. So until the OP clarifies how big of a property he's referring to exactly, the rest of us can only conclude it's about the same size as most of the rest of the $1.5Mil homes in that area. I can't imagine it's a huge $1.5 Mil home on a 5000 sq. ft. lot. That seems very unlikely. But even if that was true, then I guess this job isn't anything to really be very excited about then because then it would be a super small project.

He did say that there would be a 200'x4' retaining wall. So that tells me right there it's a pretty decent size property. He also said 400 plants. So again, that can't be a small lot. Talked about a lot of sq. footage in hardscape. So yah, I think we got the idea how big of a property this is. But since he's not been responding to anyone's questions then we can't really know for sure. All we can go off is his initial postings.



No. But it doesn't matter, really. I have crews that are some of the better install crews in my state. Most of them been with me a good 7-8 years now and are about as fast and good quality as you can get. And there's no way even my experienced guys could ever touch a job that big in just 5 days. Even if we took short cuts. It just isn't possible. No matter how good you are.



I think some of you guys are just a little too sensitive and don't like it when people tell you the cold hard truth. You'd rather people be all nice and bubbly and always saying nice positive things to you all the time than tell you the cold hard truth.

I do understand what you're saying, though - in general. You might be surprised to hear that. That's one of the reasons I don't post a lot of jobs on Lawnsite anymore. We do a lot of nice work but I don't post our jobs as much here anymore because I don't always care to listen to how some guy in another state half way across the country would have used a different paver or done the water feature a little differently or would have used a different kind of step. That gets old, I agree. Sometimes you just want people to say nice things and not get any criticism at all - even if it is meant as constructive criticism. I get that.

But the reality is that every time I've posted something on Lawnsite and didn't always like all the replies I got, I almost always learned something. And on many many occasions, the comments I got on a project that I thought turned out amazing really made me think hard about how I might do it differently next time. And so I learned something. And my work improved! As difficult as it was to hear, the criticism helped! That's the thing you gotta learn about Lawnsite. Most people are trying to help. Not everyone. There are some trolls here who just like to pick apart people's work but never post any of their own work. And, honestly, those guys are the ones who keep me from posting more often. But most of the rest of the people who post comments really aren't intending to be negative. They are trying to help you see that there are other, better, ways of doing it. Or help you see that you're really underestimating yourself. Or help you see that you're in over your head. And it's never fun to hear that but that doesn't mean it's not true. You have to take a step back sometimes and realize that sometimes these are guys who have done what you're just starting to do. And maybe they've done it hundreds of times. And maybe you ought to listen up!



I don't think anyone jumped down his a$$ about it. We were just laying out the cold hard truth. It would be like someone going into the lawn care forum and saying, "Yes! Just landed my biggest mowing account ever! It's 3 acres and they want me to start right away. I figure it will take me about 15 minutes a week on my ZTR to mow it all down. I'm gonna make bank on this one!" ............ No.....no....no. You're not. What the heck are you thinking? I don't care what kind of mower you have. That is totally unreasonable and you need to wake up to reality, kid!

Sometimes you gotta give someone a cold hard wake up call when they are posting stuff like that. That's all we did here.



And I'll have to call you out on that one too. It is helping if the person giving it out has specific experience doing exactly what you're talking about doing and offering some suggestions as to how you might be a little off track. You can chose to ignore that help. You can act like a baby and say, "I wasn't asking for your help! Go away!!!" But it's still help. It's just a matter of whether you choose to accept it or remain ignorant. You can do the latter and learn the hard way. That's how I learned most things I know. But I'll tell you from experience, it's not the best way to learn. Much better to learn from others who have done it than to just beat your head against the wall thinking you know everything. That's why these days if I run into a paver challenge that I haven't had before or a new lighting problem or an irrigation problem - I go to those forums and ask the pros who have had some serious experience. I do that first. Because it's a whole lot easier learning that way than how I used to learn for the first 5-10 years of my business.
I'm betting if I was nice like you I'd probably still be on PS.

Nicely done Jim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by indplstim View Post
JimLewis " If you see a guy who is gleefully ignorant that he is about to step in a big pile of crap and twist their ankle in the same spot you just stepped in a few months ago do you just tell him, "Awesome, glad you're happy!" No!!!". This is you calling the op ignorant, I'm not going to post on this topic anymore.
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Ignorance is not necessarily a negative thing. Everyone is ignorant. Are you a neurologist? Then you're ignorant regarding the brain. Nuclear fission? Once again you're ignorant. So am I. No one knows everything, which by definition makes us all ignorant of one thing or another.

Attempting to help someone who is ignorant on his time estimates is not negative or bashing. It is just that: help. It's up to the OP to accept the help or not.
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  #59  
Old 08-17-2011, 04:41 PM
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alexschultz1 alexschultz1 is offline
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ok, so heres an update. As everyone predicted i was in over my head, so i subbed out the retaining walls/grading/irrigation/lighting/ with a mark up and i will be overseeing the entire project. after all the hardscaping is done i will come in with my crew and finish off the plants and sod. ill post some pics of the design
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  #60  
Old 08-17-2011, 04:50 PM
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alexschultz1 alexschultz1 is offline
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i dont have enough patience to upload everything soo here ya go

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