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  #31  
Old 11-19-2011, 09:57 AM
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HayBay HayBay is offline
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Pesticides are Federally Regulated.
How long has tobacco been federally regulated?

Spining the facts is exactly what you and jay feldman (Beyond Pesticides) do daily.

Associating yourself with Pesticide Advocacy groups and selling Cavalcade. Funny stuff.

Generating money from NOFA courses (on the premise that synthetic pesticides are dangerous) , having a Speaker talk about the importance of LABEL Safety and how following the label is critical, then 1 hour later talking about how great FIESTA herbicide is, but knowing full well label directions are not going to happen.
Funny Funny.....

You really don't know what its like to be organic in the lawn care industy.
You have pesticides as a backup.
Stop selling synthetic pesticides and prove to all of us you know what your are saying.
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  #32  
Old 11-19-2011, 10:19 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by replenish&subdue View Post
Where you can learn is that ALL the chemical heads (Tru-green,Scotts,little chem.heads...)wouldn't touch the products you listed to prevent crabgrass but use Prodiamine or Pendulum.
OK r&s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by replenish&subdue View Post
And as Barry provided Prodiamine is safe at home plate.
Really? So now we have reduced your statement concerning any pre-emergent herbicides to the single herbicide Prodiamine to control crabgrass. Have it your way.

http://www.cdms.net/LDat/mp7T0002.pdf
REPRODUCTIVE/DEVELOPMENT EFFECTS
Prodiamine:
Fetal toxicity at high dose levels (rats); development and maternal toxicity observed
at 1 g/kg/day.
CHRONIC/SUBCHRONIC TOXICITY STUDIES
Prodiamine:
Liver (alteration and enlargement) and thyroid effects (hormone imbalances) at high
does levels (rats); decreased body weight gains.
CARCINOGENICITY
Prodiamine:
Benign thyroid tumors (rat). None observed (mouse).
.
.
.
.
SUMMARY OF EFFECTS: Highly toxic to fish and invertebrates. Practically non-toxic to birds and bees.

Furthermore, the EPA lists it as a possible/probable human carcinogen (ref) and if you look at the EPA registration docket, you will find not only is it still open/pending approval, but there is an alarming amount of data/studies that have yet to be conducted.

http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/registra...ew/prodiamine/

But hey .... it's OK to use (test) this product on an unsuspecting environment and population.
Safe at home base ..... I think not.

Again, no point in continuing here because you (like others) will tell yourself whatever you need in order to feel good/justified about using synthetics because short term gains will always outweigh long term consequences.
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  #33  
Old 11-19-2011, 01:48 PM
replenish&subdue replenish&subdue is offline
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Congratulations Kiril. Prodiamine is highly toxic to invertebrates and fish. That means you are the first to be able to tell me and again proves why you carry weight on this forum. Thanks and now I know.
Hopefully someone will discover a means to control crabgrass without the health dangers.
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  #34  
Old 11-19-2011, 04:01 PM
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phasthound phasthound is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HayBay View Post
Pesticides are Federally Regulated.
How long has tobacco been federally regulated?

Spining the facts is exactly what you and jay feldman (Beyond Pesticides) do daily.

Associating yourself with Pesticide Advocacy groups and selling Cavalcade. Funny stuff.

Generating money from NOFA courses (on the premise that synthetic pesticides are dangerous) , having a Speaker talk about the importance of LABEL Safety and how following the label is critical, then 1 hour later talking about how great FIESTA herbicide is, but knowing full well label directions are not going to happen.
Funny Funny.....

You really don't know what its like to be organic in the lawn care industy.
You have pesticides as a backup.
Stop selling synthetic pesticides and prove to all of us you know what your are saying.
Hay,

I associate with both advocacy and industry groups. When I do, I try to help them understand that they may have more in common than they think. I believe there is a lot of misinformation coming from both directions. I prefer to see people work together in problem solving, unfortunately that is not the norm these days.

The fees we charge for our classes are used to cover the costs for room rental, speaker fees, free lunch and promotion. There is no profit, but yes we do hope to gain clients from these events.

Following the label is the Law, why would we not include this information in these classes? Fiesta not working? We have several clients who would disagree with that comment. FYI, due to further research completed this year, the 2012 Fiesta label will have a lower rate.

When we were an applicator company, the only pesticides we used were EPA Exempt Minimum Risk and/or approved for use by the NOP. This program was successful in providing our residential clients with beautiful healthy lawns that did have some weeds.

As a supply company we offer organic, natural and transitional programs for the professional. Prodiamine and Fiesta are the only EPA registered pesticides we sell. Our goal is to greatly reduce the amount of pesticides that are overused by the industry. We prefer to do so without additional legislation such as has happened in Canada. We think a better model is with education and using effective products at comparative costs.
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  #35  
Old 11-19-2011, 07:45 PM
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HayBay HayBay is offline
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it never ends....

$18.00 for a bag of nutrientsplus fertilizer with cavalcade (controls weeds) herbicide (covers what like 5,000 to 10,000 sq ft)? 8 weeks of residual effect (2 apps a year) = $36.00 per year.

$250 for 10 L of Fiesta (1.7 Liters covers 5,000 sq ft) so $42.50 per app times 5 applications a year to keep the weeds down (supression), not including fertilizing the lawn = $212.50 per year in Fiesta for 5,000 sq ft of lawn and you will still have weeds, and the turf will become thin from the excess usage of Fiesta. (the label says 2 apps only)

Neither product is any safer than the other.

Paul Tukey was hired by the Canadian Cancer Society to help ban Cosmetic Pesticides here in Canada. Talk about Educating. They promoted his fearmongering movie to every province.

Paul Tukey and yourself have several pictures floating around the internet with each other. Gurus of Organics.

Education is what I am doing, Educating people about people like you two.

You are working on a project now , Glenstone project in its 1st year. a Lawn Converted from Pesticide to Organic. (It took 3 years to see a decline in Pestiticide treated lawns here once the ban was implemented) Claiming success and having people hand pick weeds, using compost and compost tea. In 3 more years you will realize that it was a failure, unless you use a bit of cavalcade. Not much Cavalcade is needed. Nobody will know right. Nobody will get sick right, because its safe as you said before. It is EPA approved.

Why could your gang not wait until the Organic experiment was over before writing books, making movies and creating Organic Land Care Associations about how organics create a weed free lawn.

Tukey knows nothing about Quebec, they still use Dicamba, Imidacloprid and Glyphosate just to name a few. Quebec just recently announced 2,4-D was safe for the environment and people when used as directed. Why don't you promote that.


Let me answer my own question here, Its all about MONEY. Not Safety and not the Environment.

Your group will destroy the Greenspace Industry if they are not stopped.

Thousands of people have lost their business here in Ontario because of this ban.

If there was a safer registered product that worked for us, why would I waste my time telling people this stuff.

I joined this site in 2004 to share experiences and to help others as they have helped me in the past. From contracts to spray equipment to snow plowing.

You are selling pesticides, tukey is selling books and movies.

The sad part is people will only believe what I am saying after they buy FIESTA and try it for themselves. You still make money on the sale. But the repeat customers will end.

Take away Synthetic pesticides and say hello to weeds.

Quote:
Fiesta not working? We have several clients who would disagree with that comment. FYI, due to further research completed this year, the 2012 Fiesta label will have a lower rate.
Feel free to provide proof of this. The only way that will happen is to legally allow 4 to 6 applications a year. Knowing people still need to use the highest rate. Which in turn defeats the purpose of environmentally friendly and safe.

The reason Fiesta is allowed at 2 apps a year is the dangers of FeHEDTA at greater rates. Food crops do not exceed these limits why should lawns.

Last edited by HayBay; 11-19-2011 at 07:54 PM.
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  #36  
Old 11-19-2011, 09:02 PM
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phasthound phasthound is offline
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You're probably right. But you are making some leaps of faith in coming to the conclusions you are drawing from a few of the facts you have right.

I'm sorry that the pesticide regulations in Canada have made you so bitter. I do hope the US does not follow this direction.

If you have followed my posts here through the years you should be aware that I am not opposed to a few applications of pesticides as long as the program is not being promoted as "organic". I do believe that soil health and good cultural practices greatly reduce the need for most pesticide applications. I also believe that the current overuse of pesticides is detrimental to the environment and our health. I do not believe this puts me in the same category as a fear mongering anti-pesticide activist.

I also believe it is good business practice for the independent lawn care companies to stop listening to what is being fed to them by chemical manufacturers and learn how to provide healthy lawns without relying so heavily on pesticides and synthetic fertilizers.

I bear no ill feelings towards you and I will ask you to show the same courtesy towards me. At least I place my name on my posts.
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The nation that destroys its soil destroys itself.
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  #37  
Old 11-20-2011, 10:44 AM
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HayBay HayBay is offline
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Even though your group alludes to the fact that all lawn care operators and all home owners are idiots and cannot make the correct determination when using EPA approved pesticides, Thanks for saving the world.

I see Celebritism in your future and will be proud to say I once corresponded with you.

P.S.
Let me know the facts I got wrong, I strive to correct statements that have been provided as non factual.
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  #38  
Old 11-20-2011, 02:10 PM
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phasthound phasthound is offline
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Even though your group alludes to the fact that all lawn care operators and all home owners are idiots and cannot make the correct determination when using EPA approved pesticides, Thanks for saving the world.

I see Celebritism in your future and will be proud to say I once corresponded with you.

P.S.
Let me know the facts I got wrong, I strive to correct statements that have been provided as non factual.


Hay, I think you are barking at the wrong dog here. The groups I belong to include: NJ Landscaper Contractors Association, NJ Turf Grass Association, NJ Nursery & Landscape Association, NJ Sports Field Managers Association, NJ Environmental Federation.

$18.00 for a bag of nutrientsplus fertilizer with cavalcade (controls weeds) herbicide (covers what like 5,000 to 10,000 sq ft)? 8 weeks of residual effect (2 apps a year) = $36.00 per year. The price of NP w/cavalcade varies widely depending on volume purchased, shipping location and formulation. There are 3 formulations available, 16-2-3, 10-4-2, and 5-5-0 all with 0.37% Cavalcade. All formulations are applied only once at 4lbs/K and provide up to 4 months protection.

$250 for 10 L of Fiesta (1.7 Liters covers 5,000 sq ft) so $42.50 per app times 5 applications a year to keep the weeds down (supression), not including fertilizing the lawn = $212.50 per year in Fiesta for 5,000 sq ft of lawn and you will still have weeds, and the turf will become thin from the excess usage of Fiesta. (the label says 2 apps only) We recommend using Fiesta as a spot treatment only, not as a broadcast treatment. We have found it to effectively control dandelions, clover and some other broad-leaf weeds with 2 applications in the spring and sometimes 2 more in the fall. The US label states "Do not apply to the same area more than 4 times a year". We do not promote "excess usage" of Fiesta, or any other products.

Neither product is any safer than the other. The EPA lists Prodiamine as Category III, Fiesta as Category IV: Cat IV is less toxic.

Paul Tukey was hired by the Canadian Cancer Society to help ban Cosmetic Pesticides here in Canada. Talk about Educating. They promoted his fearmongering movie to every province.
And what does this have to do with me?

Paul Tukey and yourself have several pictures floating around the internet with each other. Gurus of Organics. I have crossed paths with Paul 3 times in my life. This was one of them.

Education is what I am doing, Educating people about people like you two. No comment.

You are working on a project now , Glenstone project in its 1st year. a Lawn Converted from Pesticide to Organic. (It took 3 years to see a decline in Pestiticide treated lawns here once the ban was implemented) Claiming success and having people hand pick weeds, using compost and compost tea. I am not involved in this project, I will be visiting the estate this Monday for the first time.

In 3 more years you will realize that it was a failure, unless you use a bit of cavalcade. Not much Cavalcade is needed. Nobody will know right. Nobody will get sick right, because its safe as you said before. It is EPA approved.
Hopefully I will be invited back to the site in 3 years to report on the progress. Other sites I have actually been involved with have certainly produced fine lawns and playing fields. You are making an inaccurate acqusation if you think I would try to sneak Cavalcade into an organic program. As I have stated elsewhere, we provide several options including organic, natural or transitional programs and we are quite clear as to which products are allowed under each category.

Why could your gang not wait until the Organic experiment was over before writing books, making movies and creating Organic Land Care Associations about how organics create a weed free lawn. I'm not sure which gang you think I belong to. I have not been involved in writing books, making movies or creating Organic Land Care Associations. BTW, I am not aware of any organic association that promises a weed free lawn. Usually they say it is OK to accept some weeds.

Tukey knows nothing about Quebec, they still use Dicamba, Imidacloprid and Glyphosate just to name a few. Quebec just recently announced 2,4-D was safe for the environment and people when used as directed. Why don't you promote that. Again, what does Tukey have to do with me? I am not that in tune with Quebec, I don't think I've made that claim. The EPA does have Roundup under review due to concerns of inert ingredients.

Let me answer my own question here, Its all about MONEY. Not Safety and not the Environment. I can guarantee you I would be making a lot more money if I choose to concentrate on the sales of pesticides. I seriously doubt you would make this claim after reviewing my balance sheet.

Your group will destroy the Greenspace Industry if they are not stopped. What group is that?

Thousands of people have lost their business here in Ontario because of this ban. I am truly sorry to hear that and hope the same does not happen here in the US.

If there was a safer registered product that worked for us, why would I waste my time telling people this stuff. I don't know. But why do you use that time attacking someone you know very little about?

I joined this site in 2004 to share experiences and to help others as they have helped me in the past. From contracts to spray equipment to snow plowing.

You are selling pesticides, tukey is selling books and movies.
I joined the group to share my experiences and insight in a cordial manner (most of the time ). I sell a few pesticides. Why do you keep lumping me with Tukey?

The sad part is people will only believe what I am saying after they buy FIESTA and try it for themselves. You still make money on the sale. But the repeat customers will end. So far repeat sales have been good. When I speak with prospects about Fiesta, I try to be clear that it is not an organic product,it is registered by the EPA as a pesticide, requires a license to apply, should be used as a spot treatment, will take at least 2 applications and may not be as effective on some broad-leaf weeds as some chemical herbicides. With this understanding, most are pleased with the results.

Take away Synthetic pesticides and say hello to weeds. The amount of weeds will depend on how good the rest of your program is including; proper irrigation, mowing, seeding practices, and improving soil health. a strictly organic program will always have some weeds.

I can certainly understand the frustrations you are having due to the restrictions on lawn care in Canada, you are entitled to your opinions. May I suggest that before you make more unfounded remarks, you ask some questions you might have about me, my company, and my beliefs.
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The nation that destroys its soil destroys itself.
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  #39  
Old 11-20-2011, 02:34 PM
Tim Wilson Tim Wilson is offline
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Holy HayBay; Did you every pick out the wrong guy. Barry is just about the least pushy, most open-minded guys in the industry.

If you are going to attack people should you not be outlining your identity and credentials which qualify you to do so?

BTW, the weeds (dandelions & plantain) reduced themselves in my lawn this year just through applying molasses, ACT and setting the mower on 3.5 inches.
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  #40  
Old 11-20-2011, 05:27 PM
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HayBay HayBay is offline
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I stand corrected on the Fiesta Apps for USA.
The label does say 4 times in one year.
http://www.engageagrousa.com/uploads...0Label%201.pdf

My reference to pesticide safety is they are all dangerous if used off label no matter the category. Less toxic does not mean safe.

We will revisit the Glendale project later on, as the results will be very interesting to see.

If you really are not associated with Tukeys gang I apologize.
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