Lip on SRW Blocks Not Important?

[pavinpreacher]

Originally Posted by JimLewis

It was about 7% of the blocks that had the lip broken either partially or fully.

Thanks Jim. That doesn't sound too bad at all considering what you found out with regard to the purpose being alignment/batter.

[TomG]

Originally Posted by JimLewis

It was about 7% of the blocks that had the lip broken either partially or fully.

Jim, I would say that about 95% of the walls we install are Anchor and 5%-7% is common. I know were on completely different sides of the US so we don't have the same manufacturer of the Anchor block so maybe its a design flaw, or just how they stack them on the pallet. I would think that's when most of the lips break.

[crazymike]

Originally Posted by JimLewis

It was about 7% of the blocks that had the lip broken either partially or fully.

I misinterpreted and thought you meant 50% of the blocks

[JimLewis]

Originally Posted by DVS Hardscaper

Yeah, based on the length of the initial post and the wording, I too thought it was a majority of the block.

"the workers noticed a fairly high percentage of blocks where that lip was broken off by more than 50%."


Good Grief Jim, All that over 7%?

Like I said 2 nights ago, that 7% gets used as the base course. No sweat.

Take time for yourself this weekend and relax and have fun with the family.
,

We had 3/4 of a pallet of blocks that were damaged like this. Sure, it accounted for only about 7% or 8% of the total blocks we received. But 3/4 of a pallet is significant. Especially considering we typically get only a couple of bad blocks on a job that size. So it was extremely out of the ordinary for us to get so many blocks. That's what raised the concern to our local supplier / manufacturer. But it wasn't that concern that I was posting about. That wasn't the point at all. Somehow, you missed the point of the entire thread. I wasn't getting all worked up or upset over anything. The entire point of the thread was that I always thought the lip on the back of the block was there for structural reasons and I was surprised to learn differently. Most people thought that. Somehow you missed the entire point of the thread and came up with the idea that I was bitching and moaning or something. I was just excited to learn something new. And I wanted to check into it more and share what I found with you all.

Pretty much everyone else got that. Except you. Like usual, you wanted to be vainglorious and try to prove to everyone that you knew better what that lip was for than engineers and wall suppliers did. Once again, Andrew is the expert who we all need to bow down to and listen to, despite any evidence to the contrary. Purposely trying to be disagreeable, as is characteristic with you, you continued on, posting photos in an effort to support your continued claim that the lip was created for structural reasons and then you got sore because I called you out on the fact that you couldn't let it go that you were wrong. So then you fabricated this idea that it was me who was all stressed out and needed to relax.

I'm fine, buddy. Plenty relaxed. Just got off a 8 day trip in Tampa and Caribbean cruise. Been just fine this week. I just enjoy sharing new information with people here on Lawnsite. You mistook annoyance for stress. I'm annoyed that you can never admit when you are wrong and always get even more insolent when someone in this forum brings up facts that contradict your opinion. That's all.

[OUTLANDER]

i have to add that i really dont care what a proffesional engineer might say the blocks were designed to do. Isnt there a fraction of the design that common sense would determine what else it does?.....the lip does indeed help prevent movement in some applications, (some applications)per say, which is why it is not solely applied to the block for that purpose alone.......Thank You very much.................and besides, you are supposed to knock the lip off the first (buried) course, then continue with using the lip once above ground level

[JimLewis]

Originally Posted by OUTLANDER

...the lip does indeed help prevent movement in some applications, (some applications)per say...

Right. "some applications" being when the wall system isn't otherwise constructed properly. That is, if you don't install proper drainage behind the wall or geogrid in conditions that are specified by the manufacturer, then sure, you're going to need something other than gravity and friction to help keep the blocks in place.

Originally Posted by OUTLANDER

...i really dont care what a proffesional engineer might say...

Right. And you don't apparently care what the manufacturer of the block has to say either. You know better than either one of them, right?

You and Andrew (DVS) seem to drink the same kool-aid. Nobody can tell you guys...

Thank God we have you guys to set us straight from all these whacky engineers and manufacturers who don't know anything.

[DVS Hardscaper]

Originally Posted by JimLewis

Right. "some applications" being when the wall system isn't otherwise constructed properly. That is, if you don't install proper drainage behind the wall or geogrid in conditions that are specified by the manufacturer, then sure, you're going to need something other than gravity and friction to help keep the blocks in place.



Right. And you don't apparently care what the manufacturer of the block has to say either. You know better than either one of them, right?

You and Andrew (DVS) seem to drink the same kool-aid. Nobody can tell you guys...

Thank God we have you guys to set us straight from all these whacky engineers and manufacturers who don't know anything.

Weird, wasn't this thread shut down? LOL

Jim you have taken my comments completely out context. Very common with online forums. That's the risk we take when we decide to participate, I could go on and on about the mechanics about forums. I typed my opinion based on my observations and experience. Trying to stimulate thought and discussion. And you in turn came back saying I'm a know it all and insinuating all sorts of really angry hateful stuff. If you were to ever spend a few hrs around me in person and see how I really am and get a feel for my mentality - you would never say anything like that about me again, as you would know that what you wrote about me is not at all accurate.

I have never been disrespectful to you, other than the time you were bragging. And I have never called you names or made unprovoked remarks about you.

I stand firm on my opinion about lips on certain block. Based on my observations. I don't ride around in a truck and sit at restaurants, I'm there right next to the guys every day. I see things and I study what's going on.

Ok, I'm over this threads and won't be clicking on it anymore.

My name was mentioned, so this is my one and only response.

.
Posted via Mobile Device

[OUTLANDER]

Originally Posted by JimLewis

Right. "some applications" being when the wall system isn't otherwise constructed properly. That is, if you don't install proper drainage behind the wall or geogrid in conditions that are specified by the manufacturer, then sure, you're going to need something other than gravity and friction to help keep the blocks in place.



Right. And you don't apparently care what the manufacturer of the block has to say either. You know better than either one of them, right?

You and Andrew (DVS) seem to drink the same kool-aid. Nobody can tell you guys...

Thank God we have you guys to set us straight from all these whacky engineers and manufacturers who don't know anything.

first of all you seem to get a kick out of first insinuating that others are building walls wrong, almost like its in the back of your your mind troubling and tormenting you.(hhhmmm maybe i need to follow directions more) I said application meaning what environment, element, retention, atmosphere (weather) to explain to you since you are going to ask if i mean something is built wrong NO!!...build a wall in a high moisture area once, where moss almost certainly grows, then lets see how well this engineered friction theory (alone) stands time.....I simply said engineers, and manufacturers are going to give a primary standard on products, with not so much emphasis on secondary qualities as contractors use these blocks, and may get in a failing situation, there will be alot less to explain. If in turn they said the lip was put there with all intentions as a pattern marker, and not supposed to be for adding strength. I mean i understand what the idea is behind this design (however i've worked with these block enough, and i understand laws of gravity, and you would have to be a moron to beleive that the theory of friction would be better without the lip as compared to with.....come on). Anyway if these were designed to just be as guides then why the lip all the way across the back, and not just to the sides (just a nipple where needed)..BECAUSE THERE ARE OTHER INTENDED FUNCTIONS OF THIS DESIGN, WHICH ARE IRRELAVENT, SO STANDARDS CAN BE BLAMED ON THE INSTALLER (like you are doing right now.hahahahahaa)...anyway back to why this thread started..(watch how this works---> tell your supplier you need the lips on these blocks. If the lips are gone how would i be able to build the wall as manufactured, and engineered to do so, with the guides gone...hahahah see why they arent gonna say it works, and to rely on it)

[JimLewis]

Originally Posted by OUTLANDER

first of all you seem to get a kick out of first insinuating that others are building walls wrong...

They are. Just scroll up a little in this thread. Andrew was trying to claim that the lip on the back of the blocks was sooooo important to structural integrity that he even posted a photo of some walls he came across recently and posted them to this thread as proof. He went on to claim that if it hadn't been for the lip, these walls would have failed. YAH! No Sh|t! Because those walls in the photo didn't have the base prep. done right, have absolutely nothing but heavy soil behind them and weren't build using any of the standard methods and best practices for building SRW walls. So yah! In that case, if you ignore all the rules of building walls correctly, then yah - the lip might help. But that's not a very good argument. And you seemed to be saying the same thing. That under "certain circumstances" the lip is going to help keep the wall in place. You didn't explain what you mean by that. So I'm left to assume that you're referring to circumstances that Andrew brought up and posted about already.

Now you're getting a little more specific, saying blocks without lips would fail in high moisture areas where moss grows. But this is just conjecture on your part. You don't know that. There are plenty of wall systems out there (like Tuscan Stone by Mutual Materials or the Tegular Wall Block by Western Interlock) that don't rely on a lip on the back of the block. And yet those walls hold up just fine, as long as they are built properly and within the manufacturer's specifications. I know, I've built them. And you want to talk about wet and heavy soil and mossy? You been to Oregon before?? We got the market on that. The point is, if you handle the hydrostatic pressure by installing an appropriate drainage chimney and you install a solid footing then you don't have to rely on a lip to save the day. Your wall will only have a minor amount of pressure on it, because you've built the system properly. And THEN, the wall will be able to stand straight up just fine, just by gravity, friction, etc.

Listen, I had to convince myself too. Until the day I started this thread, I though the lip was really created for structural reasons. Once I found out that it wasn't, and I learned that I was wrong, despite what my own personal experience told me, then I began to understand that maybe others who manufacture these things and engineers who are actually really well trained in these things might know a little more than I do. Only then did it start to make sense to me.

We build basalt dry-stack walls, like the one in this photo, all the time around here in Oregon. This variety of rock wall is far more popular than SRWs are here in the NW part of Oregon. We install these 3-1 over SRWs. And despite our heavy soils, despite the amount of rain we get, despite the small 20-50 lb. rocks we use not having a "lip" on them - they are just stacked - these walls hold up just fine. The one in that photo was over 220' long and 4' high almost the entire way. We built that one over 5 years ago and it has a big hillside with a good slope behind it. And yet it's still standing just like in the photo I took there to this day. Our maintenance crews are still out at this property every week maintaining it. I see and inspect the wall on a regular basis. We've done over a hundred rock walls like that over the years. The rocks used weigh no more than the blocks we're talking about. They have no lip on the back. They are simply stacked tightly on top of each other with a little batter. Why do these hold up, in difficult conditions, without a lip? For the same reason that these block walls would hold up without a lip - gravity. That plus the proper batter, footing, drainage, etc. Because they're built properly, they don't need anything other than they weight to keep them there.

It makes sense that these blocks are the same way. They probably don't need the lip their either.

[OUTLANDER]

Originally Posted by JimLewis

They are. Just scroll up a little in this thread. Andrew was trying to claim that the lip on the back of the blocks was sooooo important to structural integrity that he even posted a photo of some walls he came across recently and posted them to this thread as proof. He went on to claim that if it hadn't been for the lip, these walls would have failed. YAH! No Sh|t! Because those walls in the photo didn't have the base prep. done right, have absolutely nothing but heavy soil behind them and weren't build using any of the standard methods and best practices for building SRW walls. So yah! In that case, if you ignore all the rules of building walls correctly, then yah - the lip might help. But that's not a very good argument. And you seemed to be saying the same thing. That under "certain circumstances" the lip is going to help keep the wall in place. You didn't explain what you mean by that. So I'm left to assume that you're referring to circumstances that Andrew brought up and posted about already.

Now you're getting a little more specific, saying blocks without lips would fail in high moisture areas where moss grows. But this is just conjecture on your part. You don't know that. There are plenty of wall systems out there (like Tuscan Stone by Mutual Materials or the Tegular Wall Block by Western Interlock) that don't rely on a lip on the back of the block. And yet those walls hold up just fine, as long as they are built properly and within the manufacturer's specifications. I know, I've built them. And you want to talk about wet and heavy soil and mossy? You been to Oregon before?? We got the market on that. The point is, if you handle the hydrostatic pressure by installing an appropriate drainage chimney and you install a solid footing then you don't have to rely on a lip to save the day. Your wall will only have a minor amount of pressure on it, because you've built the system properly. And THEN, the wall will be able to stand straight up just fine, just by gravity, friction, etc.

Listen, I had to convince myself too. Until the day I started this thread, I though the lip was really created for structural reasons. Once I found out that it wasn't, and I learned that I was wrong, despite what my own personal experience told me, then I began to understand that maybe others who manufacture these things and engineers who are actually really well trained in these things might know a little more than I do. Only then did it start to make sense to me.

We build basalt dry-stack walls, like the one in this photo, all the time around here in Oregon. This variety of rock wall is far more popular than SRWs are here in the NW part of Oregon. We install these 3-1 over SRWs. And despite our heavy soils, despite the amount of rain we get, despite the small 20-50 lb. rocks we use not having a "lip" on them - they are just stacked - these walls hold up just fine. The one in that photo was over 220' long and 4' high almost the entire way. We built that one over 5 years ago and it has a big hillside with a good slope behind it. And yet it's still standing just like in the photo I took there to this day. Our maintenance crews are still out at this property every week maintaining it. I see and inspect the wall on a regular basis. We've done over a hundred rock walls like that over the years. The rocks used weigh no more than the blocks we're talking about. They have no lip on the back. They are simply stacked tightly on top of each other with a little batter. Why do these hold up, in difficult conditions, without a lip? For the same reason that these block walls would hold up without a lip - gravity. That plus the proper batter, footing, drainage, etc. Because they're built properly, they don't need anything other than they weight to keep them there.

It makes sense that these blocks are the same way. They probably don't need the lip their either.

i never at any point doubted that gravity, and friction did not work. Also never doubted that it was not a fact, and proven by engineers. All i was saying is there is something everyone is missing if you fail to, or refuse to even consider that a lip on the back of a block can not help the strength of a wall