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  #511  
Old 08-09-2012, 03:42 PM
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cindyb cindyb is offline
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I thought these were important if you are deciding

Quote:
Originally Posted by AIRCORP View Post
I've been reviewing resolution agreements for property owners and have been finding that for trees 20 feet tall or less the DuPont money will not cover replacement. That additional 15% evaporates on reseeding, sod, broken irrigation lines, fence removal, septic tank field laterals, underground pet fence, side walks, mandatory erosion control, no solid waste dump and on and on and on. Not to mention I've seen dead and injured replants.

How about the hardwoods this year I have been evaluating with severe injury? Have you considered the damage to root systems? Most people just look at the canopy, what about the roots that were initially exposed to the toxin. Have you noticed how yellow/pale/chlorotic some canopies look? The roots can't take up the nutrients and water. What is going to happen in July when the tree needs water or there is even a slight drought?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AIRCORP View Post
Someone has asked me if I am an attorney? No, I'm not. I'm a plant scientist who has been working on investigations such as this since 1993. I was an expert witness in DuPont's Benlate issue from 1994 to 2000. I know a little bit about DuPont.

Yes, I am working or have worked for many attorneys and insurance companies evaluating Imprelis injury.

Yes, I have discovered new and more extensive damage this year on Imprelis properties, more than was listed on DuPont evaluations last year.

What I have seen in the DuPont resolution offers is pretty fair. I reommend you take it.

Yes, it probably is below what you could get if I were to analyse this for you. And I would consider all the hardwoods, shrubs, plants, turf, costs for fencing, erosion control, charcoal treatment, soil removal, in some cases complete removal of turf and soil where contamination is high, damage to driveways, sidewalks, fencing, septic systems, irrigation, underground dog fence, and on and on.

The additional 15% that DuPont offers may cover some of these expenses maybe all of them, maybe you'll have lots of additional money because they over pay you.

If I were your expert, I would measure the height of your trees using a laser devise very accurate, not just guess or take a photograph with a yard stick in the picture. I've checked some of DuPont's tree height measurements and found them to be off 4 to 8 feet, that could mean thousands of dollars just using the DuPont tree values. But, it might also mean the over estimate as well to your advantage. I know DuPont wants to be fair with you so, I believe they probably would over estimate to give you the advanage because they recognize the hardship they caused in your life when they dumped their toxin on your front yard.

But, if I were you, just take the DuPont settlement and be satisfied. You might have to wait for the attorneys to do their job and bring justice to this case. DuPont is going to send you a check, it's probably already in the mail.

The attorneys I work for are working for people who want justice and to send a message to DuPont that Americans are not going to be puppets or guinea pigs for DuPont. The people I work for a strong Americans with strong beliefs and defend our civil liberties. But it takes a special kind of American to stand up for their rights, the rights granted by our constitution, the rights that will keep America from having to experience this type of contamination in the future.

For those of you looking for a quick settlement, just sign off on your release and move on. DuPont will eventually send you a check. If more trees continue to die I'm sure DuPont's guarantee will provide you with economic compensation for your future loses. And those of your neighbors where the chemical ran off and damaged their property. I'm sure you all notified your neighbors to let them know what happened. I'm confident you did this.

And yes, those American lawyers have to charge a large fee and expenses to bring justice. And yes they all get real rich in the process. And yes, some property owners are willing to make sacrifices, to pay a little more, to give more of their time and money to make sure this does not happen to their children and grand children. Those are the people I am proud to say I work with. They put principal over profit.

And yes, expert witnesses, like myself, make money so we can buy cameras, laser measuring devices, computer systems, software, satellite images and software, vehicles, spend 8 months a year away from their family, miss their dogs, and birthdays, and holidays, trudge across miles of Imprelis impacted turf wondering if there will be future consequences to our health, be out in the snow and rain and cold and heat. Yep, we are all getting real rich off this process.

And NO, I'm not looking for any more work. I'm too busy as it is. So don't even ask.

My purpose here is to help you and to have you help me get data from resolution agreements on trees over 50 feet tall. That is my purpose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AIRCORP View Post
Starbuy

Good morning.

Most of our clients have tried the DuPont process and became frustrated because DuPont wouldn't even return their calls. Secondly, those that counter claimed never heard back from DuPont. Can you imagine what would happen if DuPont paid even one counter claim? The entire USA would be counter claiming to get a fair and equitable settlement.

Yes, I have been in Marion, Ohio and eastern Indiana. Actually, last week I was in the Grand Lake area. I have also been in NJ, PA, MD, DC, OH, IN, IL, MI, MN, KY, KS, MO.

At 6:21am I got a call from Michigan. DuPont has sent a check and was received by a home owner for $7,000. The checks are in the mail like I said yesterday. Just wait.

Now, what does a home owner have do do with that money? There are people just waiting for those checks to hit the ground. They are waiting to sell services and plants. Chain saws will roar, prunning shears will clip, earth moving equipment will be digging holes, grass will be seeded, then the final bill will hit the home owner. But, it goes on, the injured trees get maintenance for the next two years, if you don't do the maintenance, and the tree dies, you don't get the tree replaced. If you don't carefully document the maintenance and keep all the receipts, you don't get the tree replaced.

The evaluation for those trees was done last year. Yes, a checkup by DuPont may have occurred this spring, but nothing changes unless it is to DuPont's advantage. So, from my observations, the majority of the injured trees scheduled for maintenance have further declined and probably should be replaced. What a mess.

Have a great day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AIRCORP View Post
Tree Lover
So many questions.
1. Yes, I've been on homes that look like napalm was dropped. And yes, much more damage than yours. You can't believe the high end properties that used this product.

2. Arbs are toast in many places. I've seen over 300 arbs on just one property. They tried to cut them in half to get rid of the top death and destruction. Well, now they have half of death and destruction this year.
3. Check your maples and oaks. Look for odd shaped leaves with cupping and stretching. How do you post photographs on this site? I can show you what I have been seeing here in Missouri and Michigan.
4. Lilacs, rose of sharon, rhododendron, hydrangea, and other shrubs are dead or dying. You may find spider mites, aphids etc. attacking your plants and you say to yourself that the "bugs" are killing my trees. No, they are just cleaning up the mess, evolution, survival of the fittest, the bugs and disease attack weak plants.
5. DuPont adds on 15% for other things such as replacing your turf etc. If you have to resod your lawn, fix ruts etc. one should consider about $15/sq yard because of all the labor and materials. You can reseed, but many of the properties I've been on find that seed may not germinate or when it does it curls up and dies. Ask DuPont what kind of grass seed they recommend for replanting.
6. You are lucky you don't have irrigation in your yard.

Hope this answers your questions.
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  #512  
Old 08-09-2012, 03:54 PM
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cindyb cindyb is offline
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This person knows their stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by AIRCORP View Post
Hi Everyone.

Yesterday was another day in the field for me. I want to discuss a few points here.

1. Wally, you want to estimate 3 years of additional growth. I have the growth rate for every major tree involved. I use these data in my damage model analysis models. It is very reliable from the USDA and can withstand the scrutiny of the court. Let me know what trees you have and I can send you those growth numbers. But, it is three years, not two.

2. Leaves are fully expanded on most trees here in Missouri and expected 2012 growth is almost complete. I evaluated red maples yesterday. Hope you are all sitting down and your pace makers are tuned up.

From my preliminary work I found a control tree not sprayed with Imprelis, same variety, same soil type, planted about the same time but not sprayed with Imprelis. Then I compared this to trees growing on imprelis lawns.

The Imprelis maples showed no apparent injury if you stood back from a distance. But up close you could see obvious chemical injury. Then, I looked at the annual limb growth.

Each year a limb will grow in response to environmental stimulii, and also be influenced by human factors such as irrigation, fertilizer and chemical applications. Thus, if Imprelis did slow tree growth you could look at the annual limb growth and compare with other trees or with previous year's growth.

There are clear "scars" on the small limbs that show each year where growth stopped. These scars usually look like a cluster of thin rings around the limb. If you take a ruler you can measure each distance between scars and determine annual growth. Try it.

Now, the control Red Maple w/o Imprelis measured about 13 inches long for this years growth. Here are the Imprelis tree measurements for this year. 1.12; 0.5; 0.25 for one tree and 2.0 and 2.25 for the other. About an 80% reduction in growth or more. Then, you can look at 2011 growth, last year, what did Imprelis do last year: 1.87; 1.87; 2.12; on one tree and 2.6; 2.25 on the other.

Here is my first attempt at posting a photograph. The treated tree limbs are two years of growth. The center limb, not treated, is just from this year's growth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AIRCORP View Post
Ok, back again.

So, you can see from the photograph I just sent, you all may have some serious issues to deal with. How many of you have hardwood trees that appear weak? And spruce that show little or no growth this spring?

Why can't an apparently healthy spruce tree put out new buds this year? Look at it, the terminal buds appear brown, dead, maybe some new axillary buds trying to pop out behind the terminal.

Ask yourself why?

Because ALL trees and plants on your property have been impacted by Imprelis. Every single plant on your property. You may not see the injury at first, the tree looks ok from a distance, but now, you can begin to look close.

In my opinon:

1. The toxin is still in the soil and causing injury in many areas of the country.

2. Property owners may lose 5 years of normal growth or more before the trees recover, if they recover, you know, they can go the other way and decline over the five years and you have firewood standing in your front yard and your Dec 31, 2013 guarantee DuPont gives you is long forgotten.

3. Trees decline slowly folks. Some faster than others. I saw this in the last DuPont investigation I worked on from 1993 to 2001 with their product Benlate.

4. Trees that don't put on new growth, why..... they don't have the energy reserves to do so. They are growing weaker. Their root systems are damaged and they can't take up water and nutrients. Leaves are light green to yellow in some cases. That means there is no chlorophyll in the leaves folks. You have to have "green" chlorophyll for photosynthesis to manufacture sugars for the tree to live on.

5. Don't let DuPont bully you into a quick settlement like they are doing with Wally. You should be compensated for all of your "lost growth" at a reasonable rate of say $150 to $200 per foot of lost growth depending on the tree size etc.

6. A red maple will grow 1.8 feet per year in the wild according to the USDA. How fast will it grow in your well fertilized and irrigated lawn? But, let's just use the wild growth number 1.8 x 5 = 9 feet. 80% loss is about 7 feet x $150 = $1050 per tree. Do you think this is a stretch of the imagination? This is based on my preliminary work, but, let's assume I'm wrong and it is only 1/2 of what I claim, that is still $500 bucks.

7. Imagine your trees 5 years from now and what they would look like? AFter all, why did you plant trees? Wasn't it with the expectation that they would grow and develop into something you wanted in your back yard? DuPont has taken those expectations away from you and you don't even realize it. So many people do not see what is happening here.

8. Then, how did DuPont measure your tree last fall or whenever they came out? They took a measurement based on the "current" condition of the tree. Ask yourself, I couldn't replant last year, I can't replant this year, maybe, just maybe it will be safe to replant next year. OK

9. So, the replant next year won't grow very much. And, you run the risk of a continued impact of Imprelis on the tree, maybe not, maybe so, even DuPont doesn't know.

10, Therefore, if DuPont didn't poison your tree in 2011, how large would it be at the end of 2013? Shouldn't DuPont pay you for what the tree would have looked like in the fall of 2013? They stole three years of growth, or most likely more like 4 years depending on the size of your replant.

11. In the case of red maple, a 20 foot tree in 2011 would be compensated at $1910, this is DuPont's value, not mine. 3 yrs x 1.8 feet = 5.4 feet. DuPont's value for a 25.4 ft tree is::::: == $3500. That is about a $1500 difference. You just lost another $1500.

12. To those who still think it is best for them to negotiate on their own without the assistance of legal expertise, how far do you think you are going to get with DuPont on your own? Look at Wally, all he wanted to do was have his trees cut down by someone else is how I understand it. Think people, think.

13. I'm not an attorney, I am a plant scientist, I offer no legal advice or suggestions of any kind. None. I just do my job as a plant scientist and report what I see. My findings are just preliminary. Additional research may prove me wrong and that is ok. That is what the scientific method is all about, discovering false and misleading science that can result in erronous expectations. Do not rely on my work since it has not been tested by other reliable scientists and DuPont. They should have a chance to evaluate these opinions of mine and offer their own opinions. I strongly recommended that you contact DuPont and request they conduct their own studies to insure that "good" science and economics will prevail in the analysis and financial evaluation of this toxic event.

That's it.

Have a great day.
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  #513  
Old 08-09-2012, 09:31 PM
Longshot Longshot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cindyb View Post
Values

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Their "replacement value table"
1' = $30
2-4' = $90
5-6' = $230
7-8' = $360
9-10' = $520
11-12' = $650
13-14' = $930
15-16' = $1,000
17-18' = $1,120
19-20' = $1,910

25 ft $3500.00
30 $4500.00
35 $6000.00
40 $7000.00

But if you look back at Aircorp's posts, trees would have grown over the year we lost so the payment should be more not for the height when the trees was sprayed.
cindyb,

Thanks for the values of trees over 20!!

I'm sure this is a silly question since it's big company lawyers setting the offers. But, do you know how they price out a "tweener" on the larger sizes? Round up or down?


Anyone else,
Has anyone had problems with mis-measured trees? My 28's could easily be 30+ by my simple observation and that is without the last 2 years growth and the next 2+ waiting for resolution. I could easily be talking $10-20k worth of discrepancies in total based on settlement offer amounts.

Also, What's the easiest way to verify the actual height of a tree that's all curled up at the top?
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  #514  
Old 08-10-2012, 09:12 AM
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cindyb cindyb is offline
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Quote:
I'm sure this is a silly question since it's big company lawyers setting the offers. But, do you know how they price out a "tweener" on the larger sizes? Round up or down?
no idea since the LCO estimated the tree height with a yardstick.

Quote:
Anyone else,
Has anyone had problems with mis-measured trees? My 28's could easily be 30+ by my simple observation and that is without the last 2 years growth and the next 2+ waiting for resolution. I could easily be talking $10-20k worth of discrepancies in total based on settlement offer amounts.

Also, What's the easiest way to verify the actual height of a tree that's all curled up at the top?
Measure with a laser and also the trunk.

That's exactly what Aircorp talks about in his posts above this post.

Quote:
10, Therefore, if DuPont didn't poison your tree in 2011, how large would it be at the end of 2013? Shouldn't DuPont pay you for what the tree would have looked like in the fall of 2013? They stole three years of growth, or most likely more like 4 years depending on the size of your replant.

11. In the case of red maple, a 20 foot tree in 2011 would be compensated at $1910, this is DuPont's value, not mine. 3 yrs x 1.8 feet = 5.4 feet. DuPont's value for a 25.4 ft tree is::::: == $3500. That is about a $1500 difference. You just lost another $1500.
I took pics last night, continuing to watch more stuff curl and die. Looks like fall.
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  #515  
Old 08-12-2012, 12:47 PM
Starbuy Starbuy is offline
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Carbon Dynamics Lab test shows Imprelis in animal feed nationwide

Preliminary results of Carbon Dynamics testing has found Imprelis widespread in animal feed sold by major companies nationwide. The Carbon Dynamics Lab is supervised by Dr. William Keeton in The Rubenstein School of Environment and Natural Resources at the University of Vermont.

A report from Matt Sutkoski was published by Burlington Freepress on August 10, 2012 details the findings. http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/a...nclick_check=1

This publication may not be accessible without a subscription after 30 days so here are some excerpts from the very disturbing report:

"Evidence surfaced in June that small amounts of so-called persistent herbicides had tainted compost sold by Green Mountain Compost, an arm of the Chittenden Solid Waste District. The herbicides are called persistent because they don’t readily break down in soil like commonly available anti-weed products such as Roundup.

Symptoms of the contamination included curled leaves and badly stunted growth in garden plants. More than 400 gardens in northwestern Vermont were found to have damage after people applied compost purchased from Green Mountain Compost to their plots.

The waste district is spending nearly $1 million to compensate gardeners for herbicide damage and other losses, and to study the contamination and learn how to prevent it in the future."

"...Carbon Dynamics, found no detectable signs of Picloram and Clopyralid in the samples. However, Carbon Dynamics said it found another persistent herbicide called Imprelis in many samples of feed and manure that would go to Vermont farms, then to collection centers to be made into compost. That’s odd, Moreau said, since Imprelis was on the market for only nine months ending in August 2011 before being yanked due to safety questions."

"The presence of Imprelis, if confirmed, is disturbing, Moreau said, especially in light of the preliminary results of Carbon Dynamics testing that found it widespread in animal feed sold by major companies nationwide."
-Compost contamination probe gets complicated 8:46 PM, Aug 10, 2012 Burlington Freepress

As we learn more and more we realize the dreaded truth that Imprelis is still at work in our soil, our plants and making it's way into compost that is ended up in gardens and farms and now, according to these tests, has already reached into animal feed throughout the nation. Yet some wonder why many of us have rejected DuPont's resolution offer for our own properties. They haven't yet realized or learned the full scope of the long term affects Imprelis is having and some think the initial compensation offer will be sufficient for them. Tip of the iceberg.

Last edited by Starbuy; 08-12-2012 at 12:51 PM.
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  #516  
Old 08-12-2012, 12:56 PM
Ubetit Ubetit is offline
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This will be the death of DuPont. I'll end up with $50 gift card to Lowe's Garden center
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  #517  
Old 08-12-2012, 02:40 PM
Starbuy Starbuy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubetit View Post
This will be the death of DuPont. I'll end up with $50 gift card to Lowe's Garden center
That's why I retained a law firm that's filing individual cases and helping keep us out of the class action settlement. You'll hear soon that DuPont has reached a 'deal' with the other class action attorneys. It will be a woefully low offer once they divide it but will seem like a large figure (report won't show how many and what portion each person will get if they are going to accept it). I'm not going that route.
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  #518  
Old 08-12-2012, 03:37 PM
Starbuy Starbuy is offline
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For anyone who's had Imprelis damage and you're seeking a trustworthy law firm (can help in any state where Imprelis damage has occurred), contact Wright & Schulte LLC http://yourohiolegalhelp.com/ 937-222-7477 or 937-435-9999. Richard W. Schulte and all the attorneys there are energetic, ambitious, very experienced and really seem to care. They're also handling these cases in a different manner than what I've come across in researching for a law firm that's competent enough for this type of thing, yet keeps the best interests of the client at the forefront (and that means filing separate cases and yes they have a lot, but have told me they can help more of you who have been trying to face this Imprelis situation on your own). I have not been asked by them to post this nor paid, but was given permission to make this public. I'm not saying other firms are not as good as I certainly didn't talk to all of them or look at all their retainer contracts. I know people have tried contacting me and I'm sorry I may not have replied to everyone. If they ask who referred you, you may use the name Duane Sulllivan if you wish. There are others on here that have also retained them, but I don't have permission to use their name. I'm making this public because so many are now facing the decision of whether Dupont's direct resolution offer is really going to end up being sufficient for what they may suffer now and in the future. I know CindyB and others on here feel just as strongly as I do in hoping property owners will not get short changed and then later realizing their damages are greater than first estimated and feeling like they made a mistake. I don't mean to make anyone worried if they already signed DuPont's offer. Some will surely be happy with the offer and maybe they won't experience more damage or financial setbacks due to Imprelis on their property beyond DuPont's 2 year limitation.

Last edited by Starbuy; 08-12-2012 at 03:41 PM.
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  #519  
Old 08-13-2012, 09:35 AM
Starbuy Starbuy is offline
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Originally Posted by cleanponds 7/13/12 in the pesticide/herbicide section:
"GreenEm ,thanks for that link I had not read that one yet.This is on the same vein that Ohio State mentioned at the winter recert sessions that they feared a lot of the potential damage was yet to come. I planted 9 dawn redwoods last winter according to Dupont replant guidelienes with 1 ft overdig, clean backfill and activated charcoal and these trees arenow dead.They are located at the bottom of a slope so I presume Imprelis moved to their location. At the same time I planted 10- Norways and 9 serbian blue spruce on top of a hill with same "guidelines"and as a month ago they showed no signs of damage. With the abnormal heat we have had in Ohio I decided to water them and after 48-72 hours all now show Imprelis damage.I rejected Duponts first offer with damage and replacement on 26 trees and now have a total of 54 trees affected.They have not responded to the additional damage after I rejected their offer over a month ago.I am a commercial applicator and only used this product on my 10 acre home/business property and a sports field with no trees on it.I agree with Purdues description that this is a "crisis" situation."

This is why attorneys are demanded something very reasonable from DuPont for their clients; full remediation of all Imprelis laced soils not only around the tree, but the yard itself. As Cleanpond and others have tried replanting according to DuPont's guidance yet have found their new plantings have died. Since Imprelis can still be in the soil many yards away from that planting, when water moves the Imprelis moves with it and goes into the new soil you used in the excavated area for the new planting. DuPont should agree to the full remediation of all Imprelis laced lawns otherwise whatever we try to plant may end up at best stunted/deformed and at worst dead. This causes us wasted time, wasted money and continued suffering.
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  #520  
Old 08-13-2012, 09:40 AM
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cindyb cindyb is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starbuy View Post
For anyone who's had Imprelis damage and you're seeking a trustworthy law firm (can help in any state where Imprelis damage has occurred), contact Wright & Schulte LLC http://yourohiolegalhelp.com/ 937-222-7477 or 937-435-9999. Richard W. Schulte and all the attorneys there are energetic, ambitious, very experienced and really seem to care. They're also handling these cases in a different manner than what I've come across in researching for a law firm that's competent enough for this type of thing, yet keeps the best interests of the client at the forefront (and that means filing separate cases and yes they have a lot, but have told me they can help more of you who have been trying to face this Imprelis situation on your own). I have not been asked by them to post this nor paid, but was given permission to make this public. I'm not saying other firms are not as good as I certainly didn't talk to all of them or look at all their retainer contracts. I know people have tried contacting me and I'm sorry I may not have replied to everyone. If they ask who referred you, you may use the name Duane Sulllivan if you wish. There are others on here that have also retained them, but I don't have permission to use their name. I'm making this public because so many are now facing the decision of whether Dupont's direct resolution offer is really going to end up being sufficient for what they may suffer now and in the future. I know CindyB and others on here feel just as strongly as I do in hoping property owners will not get short changed and then later realizing their damages are greater than first estimated and feeling like they made a mistake. I don't mean to make anyone worried if they already signed DuPont's offer. Some will surely be happy with the offer and maybe they won't experience more damage or financial setbacks due to Imprelis on their property beyond DuPont's 2 year limitation.
I've retained Mr. Schulte also. This isn't a quick fix. DuPont had over a year to respond to my problems and didn't, can you imagine if I sign?
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