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  #11  
Old 06-26-2012, 04:52 PM
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KrayzKajun KrayzKajun is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brieldo View Post
I'll bite on this.

From an engineering perspective, it's not practical for a few reasons.
1. The decks used for industrial mowing have to be capable of handling unforeseen objects laying in the grass: rocks, stumps, etc. The kinds of blades and gear boxes uses for such environments are not designed, nor capable of the high speed cutting finish mowers undertake.
2. It's not as easy as simply having an adjustable baffle which could be manipulated for varied cutting conditions. The fundamental designs of decks and their inherent parts are totally different.

Drive Systems:
1. The drive systems on ZTR's are designed to carry the machine at a high speed with a high level of maneuverability. This is facilitated by giving up some efficacy in the way of hauling/pulling capability. In order to accomplish what you're proposing, with the ability to pull two pull-behind mowers, you would need a drive system analogous to that on a skid steer. Such a system adds significant cost and complexity, both in the way of the drive system itself, as well as the systems required to allow it to operate (larger engine, etc). Such a change would also dramatically increase weight, which is a negative on a mower that would potentially also be used for finish mowing. I don't think any of your customers would want a 3-5000 lb mower bombing around their yards. The negative implications on the turf would be significant.

Engine:
You vastly underestimate the power requirements of increased hydraulic power. Look at the big Groundsmaster/Deere mowers with hydraulic deck drives. All that extra power is needed to drive the hydraulic motors on the decks. If a 37 hp air-cooled engine is appropriate for an air-cooled 72" Hustler, start calculating what kind of power would be required to turn the pumps on a mower with skid steer wheel motors, a large deck drive system, etc. It's pretty heady.

The Intangibles:
This machine would be useful in very few locations. It's way too big for residential properties, the complexity of it is a negative, as a simple tractor/bush hog combo would facilitate the same level of industrial mowing efficacy at both lower cost and lower maintenance thresholds.

The Economics:
Frankly, from a business perspective, it makes very little sense. What you're proposing would be over $30,000 without too much effort. Simply look at a diesel zero turn like a Ferris or Kubota. Those are pushing $20k and they're just finish mowing ZTR's. Now increase the drive system scope, increase the deck drive system, increase the frame and underpinnings to carry the whole thing...the costs add up extremely rapidly. Such a machine would probably have at least 10K in the engine and hydraulics alone. It just doesnt make sense. Furthermore, the market for such a machine would be nil. It breaks down something like this assuming a 30k price point:
1. If you need to simply finish mow, buy a ZTR for 10k.
2. If you need to finish mow and brush hog, buy your ZTR for 10k, and some kind of tractor/bush hog with the other 20. Mind you said tractor could also be used as a loader, a grader, etc; functions this super-industrial mower would be incapable of.
Customers would not be inclined to purchase some super mower that really doesn't do anything exceptionally well and is such a monstrosity the benefits of having a zero-turning radius and agility are significantly diminished.
Unfortunately it just doesnt make any sense.
Very well said. Kudos for typing all of that.
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  #12  
Old 06-26-2012, 05:01 PM
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Why not just run a toro, john deere or lastec WAM and be done with it.
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  #13  
Old 06-26-2012, 05:18 PM
Realslowww Realslowww is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knox gsl View Post
Why not just run a toro, john deere or lastec WAM and be done with it.
There not designed to do what I am talking about + this unit will be able to be built in sections so you just buy as you need the sections to build a super huge reliable cutting machine.
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  #14  
Old 06-26-2012, 05:55 PM
Realslowww Realslowww is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brieldo View Post
I'll bite on this.

From an engineering perspective, it's not practical for a few reasons.
1. The decks used for industrial mowing have to be capable of handling unforeseen objects laying in the grass: rocks, stumps, etc. The kinds of blades and gear boxes uses for such environments are not designed, nor capable of the high speed cutting finish mowers undertake.
2. It's not as easy as simply having an adjustable baffle which could be manipulated for varied cutting conditions. The fundamental designs of decks and their inherent parts are totally different.

Drive Systems:
1. The drive systems on ZTR's are designed to carry the machine at a high speed with a high level of maneuverability. This is facilitated by giving up some efficacy in the way of hauling/pulling capability. In order to accomplish what you're proposing, with the ability to pull two pull-behind mowers, you would need a drive system analogous to that on a skid steer. Such a system adds significant cost and complexity, both in the way of the drive system itself, as well as the systems required to allow it to operate (larger engine, etc). Such a change would also dramatically increase weight, which is a negative on a mower that would potentially also be used for finish mowing. I don't think any of your customers would want a 3-5000 lb mower bombing around their yards. The negative implications on the turf would be significant.

Engine:
You vastly underestimate the power requirements of increased hydraulic power. Look at the big Groundsmaster/Deere mowers with hydraulic deck drives. All that extra power is needed to drive the hydraulic motors on the decks. If a 37 hp air-cooled engine is appropriate for an air-cooled 72" Hustler, start calculating what kind of power would be required to turn the pumps on a mower with skid steer wheel motors, a large deck drive system, etc. It's pretty heady.

The Intangibles:
This machine would be useful in very few locations. It's way too big for residential properties, the complexity of it is a negative, as a simple tractor/bush hog combo would facilitate the same level of industrial mowing efficacy at both lower cost and lower maintenance thresholds.

The Economics:
Frankly, from a business perspective, it makes very little sense. What you're proposing would be over $30,000 without too much effort. Simply look at a diesel zero turn like a Ferris or Kubota. Those are pushing $20k and they're just finish mowing ZTR's. Now increase the drive system scope, increase the deck drive system, increase the frame and underpinnings to carry the whole thing...the costs add up extremely rapidly. Such a machine would probably have at least 10K in the engine and hydraulics alone. It just doesnt make sense. Furthermore, the market for such a machine would be nil. It breaks down something like this assuming a 30k price point:
1. If you need to simply finish mow, buy a ZTR for 10k.
2. If you need to finish mow and brush hog, buy your ZTR for 10k, and some kind of tractor/bush hog with the other 20. Mind you said tractor could also be used as a loader, a grader, etc; functions this super-industrial mower would be incapable of.
Customers would not be inclined to purchase some super mower that really doesn't do anything exceptionally well and is such a monstrosity the benefits of having a zero-turning radius and agility are significantly diminished.
Unfortunately it just doesnt make any sense.
I love it when the flat Earther's reply have you been to any witch burnings or maybe a stoning lately?

From an engineering stand point we are already there,according to Hustler the new Hyper drive unit pumps are only operating at 18% capacity and Puppypaws say's this is the same unit the skid steer Bobcat's loaders use to make them go. I will agree you may not be able to have a 2 speed unit but you could make a 10 to 12 MPH high torque ZTR to pull the pull behind units. The Cheetah uses a 2 speed setup but I have never researched how this is done so I do not know if this is practical for this application but in the future it would not surprise me if these obstacles are removed.

Weight?, the mower would really only weigh a 100 pounds or so more and most of it would be the engine and cooling system. Water cooling is a must for longevity and will make an engine last twice as long on average.The additional rear wheels would add weight however but not to much. the machine realistically would weigh between 1500 and 1700 pounds with additional rear tires and alot of diesel ZTR's weigh more than that already.

The biggest problem is the motor does not exist in the right configuration that I know of but they do exist in other configurations. Take a Honda VTX 1800 V twin motor, it makes 100 HP and 100 Ft pounds of torque and will do it for well over a 100,000 miles with light maintenance so power is no problem but the fact nobody makes an industrial motor like this is.

A few more pulleys and a 2 belt clutch is no big deal either to get a system that will apply true grip without slipage to the blades. Gear boxes? what are you talking about?, do you own a Turf Kitty?

The mower part really already is practically available with light mods. The deck is not a issue, the 72 ZTR unit would use a finish style deck you can adjust with different blades and front baffel depending on what type of mowing you are doing and the pull behind units would be designed to do industrial cutting only and a clean finish would be secondary in the design. A real simple unit that is tough as nails unlike my Swishers which are JUNK! oh they can be fixed with major modding but boy who ever designed those things should be shot!

You could get the mower out at the same price as a diesel ZTR.

Last edited by Realslowww; 06-26-2012 at 06:01 PM.
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  #15  
Old 06-26-2012, 06:06 PM
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Mickhippy Mickhippy is offline
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The new SZ covers most of the points ie, industrial pumps n wheel motors, low CoG etc.
I dont think a 2 speed is better than the current system. More stuff to fail!

For industrial use even the deck would probably be fine but (at least for me) not great on nicer lawns. The front skirt/baffle can raised high for very rough stuff and lowered for nice turf but would be good if they made it an easier thing to do between jobs.
The pumps etc could easily handle larger ATV tires but yeah, dual tires for really steep stuff but then what about a self levelling seat platform? Hustler had one on the ATZ.
Get some swing away blades made up for high risk situations or look at these vids with a SZ and X1 with flail decks...
http://youtu.be/G_Z3CffLBGc
http://youtu.be/zcobhqn3IU0 or
rear discharge... http://youtu.be/nOI8ITBlJOM
Ability to quick changed decks would be nice and maybe a shaft driven deck.

The hp ratings have changed so I would like to see approx 40hp efi/dfi under new rating system.
The ROPS need to be sorted as is useless at the moment and belts upgraded.

Basically, the new SZ is a very good, heavy duty mower and is pretty damn industrial. Just a few changes and tweaks and its what your after.

Last edited by Mickhippy; 06-26-2012 at 06:10 PM.
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  #16  
Old 06-26-2012, 06:13 PM
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GMLC GMLC is offline
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Just buy a Turf Tiger....
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  #17  
Old 06-26-2012, 06:50 PM
Realslowww Realslowww is online now
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[QUOTE=Mickhippy;4454312]The new SZ covers most of the points ie, industrial pumps n wheel motors, low CoG etc.
I dont think a 2 speed is better than the current system. More stuff to fail!

For industrial use even the deck would probably be fine but (at least for me) not great on nicer lawns. The front skirt/baffle can raised high for very rough stuff and lowered for nice turf but would be good if they made it an easier thing to do between jobs.
The pumps etc could easily handle larger ATV tires but yeah, dual tires for really steep stuff but then what about a self levelling seat platform? Hustler had one on the ATZ.
Get some swing away blades made up for high risk situations or look at these vids with a SZ and X1 with flail decks...
http://youtu.be/G_Z3CffLBGc
http://youtu.be/zcobhqn3IU0 or
rear discharge... http://youtu.be/nOI8ITBlJOM




Thankyou ,you are right,the new Super is real close but 50HP because this machine would be for doing grass that is a month old. I do not like drive shaft but it may work better.Water cooling is a big plus along with EFI.

I have not researched the drive of the new Super but is it really that underrated for it's app?

The machine I am talking about with good pull behinds would be one mowing mofo that really would out class the big complex tractor with their style of gang mowers.

You would want a ATZ cage for sure.

You hit it right on the head I want a gang mower designed for doing huge over grown area's.

Last edited by Realslowww; 06-26-2012 at 06:58 PM.
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  #18  
Old 06-26-2012, 07:19 PM
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Mickhippy Mickhippy is offline
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Heres a property I did a week or so ago. It usually gets mowed 2wkly but due to the amount of rain it hadnt been done for months, probably around xmas was last cut.
This machine isnt a bush hog by any means but its quite capable of mowing patchs of very thick long grass. It was even faily damp.
These areas were double cut...
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  #19  
Old 06-26-2012, 07:27 PM
Realslowww Realslowww is online now
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Your just a ZTR wealth of information machine,will the blade belt slip at all doing that and how fast can you go and actually knock it down good? could you ever use more than 37 HP? Thanks!

I like the tires.
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  #20  
Old 06-26-2012, 07:55 PM
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Mickhippy Mickhippy is offline
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Mate, I appreciate what you said but I only know some things, not everything. The stuff I know is what Ive learnt through experience. Here, where I live I can go from a nice multi million dollar property onto a place like in the pics, its a mixed bag. If I couldnt mow all these places then I wouldnt be in business. I do have my limits though!

I didnt notice any belt slippage.

The grass in those pics is very thick. Think of a much more heavy duty bermuda (it called kykuyu) so first pass was slow. That does the main cutting then come back in same pass pretty quick as only (pretty much) recutting stringers and then a fast 3rd cut when all done to clean up a bit. I forgot about the 3rd clean up cut so it was run over 3 times in the bad spots. I probably spent an extra 15-20mins on this place, I charged for it though.

If cutting once/month I would barely have to slow down if dry.

37hp is plenty but if cutting that grass on a slope then more would be nice, but would need efi to reduce fuel. Depends on how big of an area. If theres only small patches of long thick stuff like in the pic then a ztr is fine but if doing acres of it then a bush hog is the best bet.
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