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  #11  
Old 06-29-2012, 07:18 AM
Duekster Duekster is offline
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On one hand recharging the ground water is a good thing but it can carry mis-appied chemicals. It is not a good thing, and in the case of clay, the water and material can shed to surface waters.
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  #12  
Old 06-29-2012, 07:21 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Think Green View Post
Axe,
I understand that this condition does lead to decline in grasses. I understand that this also leads to surface rooting and therefore leads to decline from drought stress, disease, and lack of nutrient absorption. Like drinking chocolate milk with the chocolate not stirred.
I feel that these types of soils......many in my area from excessive wear of large equipment on poor soil. The clay pot syndrome on the surface only causes excessive run-off from irrigation, moss, and overall nutrient loss. After the sun bakes the top layers, it becomes lifeless and void of micro life. Worms don't and cannot live in these compact soils. I speak because I see these soils after doing a soil sample. When you can't stick a screw driver in to a depth of 4 inches because of compaction, how can a turfgrass grow and thrive. Beneficial soil microbes and worms cannot live in this. So, in all respects neither can a turfgrass.
In terms of cool turfgrass where deep roots is essential, the warmer season grasses have problems with shallow rooting and poor nutrient intake. This leads LCO's like me to spoon feed grasses with chemical fertilizers that will only speed up the process of compaction. I have pushed the technique of coring and topdressing with either peat moss and or sand to reduce the compaction.............but to no action of customer base interest, I have ceased the operation and the hassle of pushing sales. When the customer doesn't want to spend the essential money for the long haul, then it isn't my concern from there. You can't get blood from a turnip!!!!
I've seen the same thing happen, and I attribute a lot of the results to excessive watering... but I can't say that for sure... nevertheless, not much in the way of worms, in many of these soils,... even the gardens are devoid of worm activity due to lack of OM and excessive watering... In fact this discussion just gave me an idea about one of the gardens that I work...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
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  #13  
Old 06-29-2012, 07:32 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duekster View Post
On one hand recharging the ground water is a good thing but it can carry mis-appied chemicals. It is not a good thing, and in the case of clay, the water and material can shed to surface waters.
You got that right... we have 'potato country' in Wisco where the water table is high a accumulating nitrites/nitrates in enormous quantities... I believe they may still have 'Aldicarb' in some wells in the area, even though it was outlawed in the 70's...
I sit over 100' above the water table with a good mixture of varying soil materials that have the potential to filter correctly, but the reseviour basin is the same for the entire state and beyond, so we got nitrates as well...

Of course surface waters are not only plugging up with anaerobic decay of plant material and the associated P, but also runoff from squirt&fert guys in the towns...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
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  #14  
Old 06-29-2012, 08:55 AM
Duekster Duekster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
You got that right... we have 'potato country' in Wisco where the water table is high a accumulating nitrites/nitrates in enormous quantities... I believe they may still have 'Aldicarb' in some wells in the area, even though it was outlawed in the 70's...
I sit over 100' above the water table with a good mixture of varying soil materials that have the potential to filter correctly, but the reseviour basin is the same for the entire state and beyond, so we got nitrates as well...

Of course surface waters are not only plugging up with anaerobic decay of plant material and the associated P, but also runoff from squirt&fert guys in the towns...
I drove through Kansas and at many of the rest areas, the water was non-potable.

Today however, the creeks and streams in Urban areas like Dallas and Denver have higher levels of pesticides and fertilizers than those near ag areas.

I assume these two cities and the other 4 ( I do not recall which 4) have high irrigation requirements, and clay leading to run off.
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  #15  
Old 06-29-2012, 08:06 PM
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Think Green Think Green is offline
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Axe,
I rack my brain........read on the internet of options to correct what I think is soil troubles without the use of the common State Soil Test Results. I can't help those that will scold me for this practice but 5 out of 5 results from 5 different locations all proved nearly the same results and all 5 advised the use of the same corrective measure. The measures are XX amount of 13/13/13 and the use of Dolomitic Limestone at X amount per thousand. This is dinosaur or robotic advisement from State officials!!
How can all results tell you to use the same thing?? It is all they will advise because that is what they are told to do.
Around here with Arkansas State University just a couple miles from me.......all the resources is Agriculture. This does not cover turfgrass unless I go to the U of A website and scrounge around at past studies. Corrective measures isn't something the State Extension Service is familiar with unless you are correcting nutrient deficiencies on corn and soybeans. Get my drift?! The attitude here is plant one crop, harvest it and get ready for another crop soon thereafter. Keep on adding fertilizers to correct the problem and finally let the land go dormant otherwise. Till the soil between crops or at the time of planting. Well, as you know we can't do this each season with turfgrass. Then what?? Topdressing isn't something that is done here unless you are at the country clubs. They have the money to do so. Farmer's are using agricultural non turfgrass labeled herbicides on their lawns........they don't care. Even though most is the same thing we use on residential.......YOU KNOW!!
I don't want to sound like searching for the needle in the haystack is irrelevant but some things that is unexplained need to be just that! It is obvious that today's practices is out of touch with what used to be. We are tying too hard to prove something different!!
I want to know how to correct things also.......but sometimes I sleep better at night just by not caring and just doing my job. The Best That I Can!
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  #16  
Old 06-29-2012, 08:34 PM
Weekend cut easymoney Weekend cut easymoney is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
I believe that water draining through the soil on its way to the water table is a good thing... the roots act as a filter, cleaning the water as it goes, but the action of downward motion draws air into the pores that the water just drained from... anyways, that's how I see it...

Have you used Field Magic? is it worth the trouble/money??
We are using it on several sites--

on 3 installs we have had mixed results--the first two on palisades Zoysia planted on top of field Magic mixed with king ranch cotton burr mix soil--planted in late Feb...it was very cool and we think we lost some of the grass due to fungus...though, I will say the yard that had an irrigation system did fine, the other might have neglected to water the first 3-5 days--later as it got warmer and I harped on watering --they stepped it up and it filled in perfect--

Top dressed my own yard and aerated and see some benefit--watering once per week, my St. Augustine did fine until last week and it dried out (possibly the product held onto the water or denied it from the plant?)
My neighbor did the same thing and his looks perfect--the only difference is that he has high filtered sunlight most of the day-

I also installed Zoysia (a pallet of palisades, one of Zorro and 1/2 of Emerald) with it mixed with the soil beneath the sod--hand watered once per day over the last month and it mostly all doing fine (bought it cheap after sitting at King Ranch for 3-5 days--all was yellow)-I'll post a photo or two-

Spread field Magic after seeding bare dirt on a median in heavy shade--trying to stabilize the soil and see if I could get it going--after 3 weeks the fescue is sprouting with once per week watering-
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  #17  
Old 06-29-2012, 10:14 PM
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Think Green Think Green is offline
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easymoney,
where is field magic located? I tried to google it and all that came up is yu-gi-oh stuff!
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  #18  
Old 06-30-2012, 07:53 AM
Duekster Duekster is offline
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Think Green

http://turf.uark.edu/

http://www.arkansasturf.org/

Most Ag extentions do cater to Ag. Most of my CEU's, partularly on-line seem geared toward crops as well

I noticed that A&M now has a turf soil form and this is relatively new. I know there are some good indi labs for this too.
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  #19  
Old 06-30-2012, 08:20 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Join Date: May 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Think Green View Post
Axe,
I rack my brain........read on the internet of options to correct what I think is soil troubles without the use of the common State Soil Test Results. I can't help those that will scold me for this practice but 5 out of 5 results from 5 different locations all proved nearly the same results and all 5 advised the use of the same corrective measure. The measures are XX amount of 13/13/13 and the use of Dolomitic Limestone at X amount per thousand. This is dinosaur or robotic advisement from State officials!!
How can all results tell you to use the same thing?? It is all they will advise because that is what they are told to do.
Around here with Arkansas State University just a couple miles from me.......all the resources is Agriculture. This does not cover turfgrass unless I go to the U of A website and scrounge around at past studies. Corrective measures isn't something the State Extension Service is familiar with unless you are correcting nutrient deficiencies on corn and soybeans. Get my drift?! The attitude here is plant one crop, harvest it and get ready for another crop soon thereafter. Keep on adding fertilizers to correct the problem and finally let the land go dormant otherwise. Till the soil between crops or at the time of planting. Well, as you know we can't do this each season with turfgrass. Then what?? Topdressing isn't something that is done here unless you are at the country clubs. They have the money to do so. Farmer's are using agricultural non turfgrass labeled herbicides on their lawns........they don't care. Even though most is the same thing we use on residential.......YOU KNOW!!
I don't want to sound like searching for the needle in the haystack is irrelevant but some things that is unexplained need to be just that! It is obvious that today's practices is out of touch with what used to be. We are tying too hard to prove something different!!
I want to know how to correct things also.......but sometimes I sleep better at night just by not caring and just doing my job. The Best That I Can!
I too am trying to see if there is a way of getting clay to be more user friendly, with some strategy for using water effectively... Triple 13 fertilizer isn't my answer, either...

Do you have many irrigated lawns, with heavy soil???

You also mentioned that topdressing was too expensive for most of your clients and the Country Club is the only place to do it... Are they topdressing sand or compost?
__________________
*
Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
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  #20  
Old 06-30-2012, 08:30 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Central Wisconsin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weekend cut easymoney View Post
We are using it on several sites--

on 3 installs we have had mixed results--the first two on palisades Zoysia planted on top of field Magic mixed with king ranch cotton burr mix soil--planted in late Feb...it was very cool and we think we lost some of the grass due to fungus...though, I will say the yard that had an irrigation system did fine, the other might have neglected to water the first 3-5 days--later as it got warmer and I harped on watering --they stepped it up and it filled in perfect--

Top dressed my own yard and aerated and see some benefit--watering once per week, my St. Augustine did fine until last week and it dried out (possibly the product held onto the water or denied it from the plant?)
My neighbor did the same thing and his looks perfect--the only difference is that he has high filtered sunlight most of the day-

I also installed Zoysia (a pallet of palisades, one of Zorro and 1/2 of Emerald) with it mixed with the soil beneath the sod--hand watered once per day over the last month and it mostly all doing fine (bought it cheap after sitting at King Ranch for 3-5 days--all was yellow)-I'll post a photo or two-

Spread field Magic after seeding bare dirt on a median in heavy shade--trying to stabilize the soil and see if I could get it going--after 3 weeks the fescue is sprouting with once per week watering-
There are a lot of reasons why some grasses will spout on once/week waterings, especially in shade, but in your opinion the soils seem to hold water more effectively? then again it may actually withhold water from the plant when it gets too dry?
Very few plants are capable of getting every last drop of moisture out of the ground, with the exception of perhaps Crabgrass...

I suppose a field test, for field magic may be a fun thing to do...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
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