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  #21  
Old 06-30-2012, 08:38 AM
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Think Green Think Green is offline
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Location: Arkansas--Mississippi flood plains
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Duekster,
I am aware of the two sites you posted. However, The Arkansasturf.org is a association I am already a member of . It is the Arkansas Turfgrass Association.........this site is just a marquee to their organization.
I have trolled through their sites and have been disappointed. Talked to our U OF A and State Plant Board director Dr. John Boyd in Hot Springs, Ar. a couple years ago about the sites. He said they are in their infancy stage and will take some time for building. NOT Very Informative and easy to navigate.

Axe,
I have a growers question that may lead into another in depth discussion for practicality. Since annuals are grown in green houses for the most part and other plants are grown outdoors, Can we obtain the ingredients at a competitive price and perform natural healthy soil techniques? I am aware of PHC products in packets or poundages but has anyone really tried them and can attest to results in grasses and not trees or shrubbery. I know that we cannot make a wonderful Blueberry cheese cake from scratch without paying 70.00 for ingredients vs. eating out and getting a cheaper pie at the store. Not all of us members have access to wholesale suppliers that will not cut off our legs in shipping costs.
The bigger cities seems to be the one's that have more lawn problems per say but it is easier for you guys to get the materials you want.
I have one simple darn question who's answer is being avoided or can't be solved. How can you take a Bermuda lawn that is grown on top of clay soil--with pitiful top soil and make it livable? Coring, plugging, aerating.......whatever you want to call it........thatching because of surface rooting and make a suitable healthy, worm ridden, beneficial acceptable lawn.???????? All the time preventing brown patch, surface crusting, thinning out, compaction?? I don't think the answer exists or all these companies would not be selling soo many products to simply mask the problem without any cure!! I can't help but to fall prey to those customers that want to see results in two years without seeing their savings go down the toilet. I a company has a sales pitch to solve problems.......then you better well do it or quit advertising the product.
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  #22  
Old 06-30-2012, 08:40 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duekster View Post
I drove through Kansas and at many of the rest areas, the water was non-potable.

Today however, the creeks and streams in Urban areas like Dallas and Denver have higher levels of pesticides and fertilizers than those near ag areas.

I assume these two cities and the other 4 ( I do not recall which 4) have high irrigation requirements, and clay leading to run off.
It is seldom ag regions that are causing the problem for open water by comparison to urban areas... the storm sewers carry anything and everything to the open water in one form or another...
It is always the abuses of "More is Better" and "One Size Fits All" that causes the problems in all places where ferts&'cides are used...

I'm still unsure if the sewers along Lake Michigan feed into the lake or not...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
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  #23  
Old 06-30-2012, 08:42 AM
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Think Green Think Green is offline
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Location: Arkansas--Mississippi flood plains
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Axe,
The country clubs is using that white small grained sand from Florida. They supplement the bent grass with whatever fertilizers it requires. Weekly raking of the greens with this sand and fert mixture is what they are doing. I can't get any of our local super's to spill any more information on their compaction techniques other than for green's and tee's.
I guess the only simple solution is to stay off the turf while it is wet, don't use heavy equipment, go back to push mowers and wear golf shoes while mowing the grass.
This will put an end to all the problems.
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  #24  
Old 06-30-2012, 08:57 AM
Duekster Duekster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
It is seldom ag regions that are causing the problem for open water by comparison to urban areas... the storm sewers carry anything and everything to the open water in one form or another...
It is always the abuses of "More is Better" and "One Size Fits All" that causes the problems in all places where ferts&'cides are used...

I'm still unsure if the sewers along Lake Michigan feed into the lake or not...
The term I believe you should look for is combined sewers. Check and see if Michigan has combined sewers and that would tell you. I think Chicago does have combined sewers.
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  #25  
Old 06-30-2012, 09:01 AM
Duekster Duekster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Think Green View Post
Duekster,
I am aware of PHC products in packets or poundages but has anyone really tried them and can attest to results in grasses and not trees or shrubbery.

I use PCH products and have for years. Flexx really greened up the turf and did not flush. Seemed like a good product. Lebenon bought PCH, Flexx is now hard to find, the lable is not the exact same. They now push the PCH Bio Pac Plus instead. I have about 30 or so pounds left. The Jury is still out if it is as good as it was, I am leaning toward not as good for some reason.

Based on the App rates and the label there is not enough fertlizer or iron to get the responce we got. I felt it had to be some of the bugs in it as well as the micros.

I will likely keep feeding the PCH product but rely on N and Iron more.
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  #26  
Old 06-30-2012, 09:07 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Location: Central Wisconsin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Think Green View Post
... I have a growers question that may lead into another in depth discussion for practicality. Since annuals are grown in green houses for the most part and other plants are grown outdoors, Can we obtain the ingredients at a competitive price and perform natural healthy soil techniques? I am aware of PHC products in packets or poundages but has anyone really tried them and can attest to results in grasses and not trees or shrubbery. I know that we cannot make a wonderful Blueberry cheese cake from scratch without paying 70.00 for ingredients vs. eating out and getting a cheaper pie at the store. Not all of us members have access to wholesale suppliers that will not cut off our legs in shipping costs.
The bigger cities seems to be the one's that have more lawn problems per say but it is easier for you guys to get the materials you want.
I have one simple darn question who's answer is being avoided or can't be solved. How can you take a Bermuda lawn that is grown on top of clay soil--with pitiful top soil and make it livable? Coring, plugging, aerating.......whatever you want to call it........thatching because of surface rooting and make a suitable healthy, worm ridden, beneficial acceptable lawn.???????? All the time preventing brown patch, surface crusting, thinning out, compaction?? I don't think the answer exists or all these companies would not be selling soo many products to simply mask the problem without any cure!! I can't help but to fall prey to those customers that want to see results in two years without seeing their savings go down the toilet. I a company has a sales pitch to solve problems.......then you better well do it or quit advertising the product.
Not sure how Bermuda works on clay or sand because we'll never experience it , this far north... but clay seems always to be either too wet or too dry with very little wiggle room in between...
Last week I did a transplant in an open garden in which the h.o. does the watering at their whim... if the surface seems dry and the plant droop the sprinkler goes on... anyways in this t-plant, I dug into the heavy soil, and it was a sticky mud even below the shovel level...

So the plants in this garden were not wilting from the dryness exhibited at the surface, they were suffocating from not having adequate air supply lower in the profile...

How deep are you able to get the roots to grow in the Bermuda??? How deep does the moisture typically go into the clay???
__________________
*
Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
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  #27  
Old 06-30-2012, 09:10 AM
Duekster Duekster is offline
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Roots of Buffalo can go 12 feet. Bermuda about 1/2 that but that takes years to acheive. Most of the roots are in the top 6".

The problem with clay is it holds water and has a low infiltration rate. Sand is much worse as it hold almost no water.
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  #28  
Old 06-30-2012, 09:29 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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I was curious about how deep the roots are in the lawns being cared for at this moment...

I also wonder if a more aggressive grass, such as Annual Ryegrass would punch through the clay, then leave organic matter trails/opening through the mud, when it dies...
Of course the lawns would already have to be in pretty rough shape to be thought of as an improvement during the growing season...
Rye grass runs opposite seasons in the South compared to cools season grasses, but I believe it dies out in both case... Is that true???
__________________
*
Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
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  #29  
Old 06-30-2012, 09:34 AM
Duekster Duekster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
I was curious about how deep the roots are in the lawns being cared for at this moment...

I also wonder if a more aggressive grass, such as Annual Ryegrass would punch through the clay, then leave organic matter trails/opening through the mud, when it dies...
Of course the lawns would already have to be in pretty rough shape to be thought of as an improvement during the growing season...
Rye grass runs opposite seasons in the South compared to cools season grasses, but I believe it dies out in both case... Is that true???
You can plant annual and perennial rye here in our black gumbo. The Perennial will live year round in shady areas, between track homes where the other house and fence lines protect it and under large trees.

I typically avoid the annual as it grows too fast.

The depth of the root system depends on several things like watering practices, mowing practices, compaction and such.
Down here we avoid mowing when it is wet if we can cause it adds to the compaction concerns. Aeration and top dressing is beneficial and should be done more, at least until the tilth and earth worm population takes over.
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  #30  
Old 06-30-2012, 09:55 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Location: Central Wisconsin
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We seem to be doing OK with our worst clay scenarios, by running a little water everyday... becuz of dog urine we never fertilize but rather add molasses on a regular basis... it appears that 'runoff' is the most common place for rain/irr to go and evapo/transportation is the second most important factor... judging by the depths of moisture, even in the Spring, it appears that zero(0) water soaks into the ground, below the 3-4" mark...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
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