About Products or About Plant Husbandry

[Smallaxe]

Are 'organic lawns', superior to synthetic lawns???

If so,,, Why???

Why are weed killers an issue???

Is there any such thing as a 'mature lawn'???

If we have to dump commercial products onto the turf to perpetually spoon feed N to the turf, then What's the Point???

[Smallaxe]

So it is safe to assume that buying, and applying, 'organic products' at the higher cost is what makes the 'organic lco'...
Perhaps another question about 'organics' is: "What constitutes healthy turf?"

[knox gsl]

Don't you post this question regularly and the argue with anyone who responds to it?
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[Smallaxe]

No,,, I never get a valid response... usually someone comes in with an unrelated statement that is more personal attack, in nature...
This forum used to discuss healthy turf, now we talk about products at the same indepth level as urea...

My last question was about the value of tilth, but it appears that 'products' work independantly of tilth, and our superficiality in dealing with turf, as professionals is adequate...

In truth I'm only testing the waters as far as what "Pros" do, and/or do not, understand as horticulturalists... I can now expect a loud and obnoxious personal attack from others on this forum to ensure the discussion never gets off the ground...

I wonder why the concept of healthy/mature turf is so illusive/allusive???

[turfmd101]

I think most believe and feel, when it comes to turf...Green MEANS healthy. Not true!
N will create green but not because of health..

Healthy roots and the root structure ( ANCHOR AND FEEDER existing ) will directly dictate overall plant health over any specific age life of any plant.

N has little ability to dramatically enhance root development. It is of low importance.

Cultural practices create overall health. Products applied have little effect under poor cultural practices.
Cultural practices and how effective they are if properly understood and applied unfortunately do not come with label instructions.

Healthy turf will create green with little N.
Besides, what do you look for with N, health or growth?
You better know your mostly getting growth....but the thing is if N stops being applied. Growth will continue. That's why cutters will always be employed, even after the demise of fertilizer.
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[Smallaxe]

Originally Posted by turfmd101

... Healthy turf will create green with little N. ...
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I agree completely...
Healthy turf will do a lot of things with less fertilizer and less water, that the overmanaged(over messed with) lawns will struggle to accomplish...

Do you guys in the South have turf that will eventually develop into a 'mature' lawn???

Around here we have lawns that have not been micro-managed and/or overly fed/irrigated or any of those misc. activities... When we look closely at those lawns they have root density and depth that is able to take a lot of abuse and still remain strong...
There is no comparison of these ancient lawns that were never overseeded, aerated, dethatched, irrigated, sprayed or fertilized to the 'managed' lawns,,, other than the dark green that you'd get with a little N and spot spraying broadleaf once in a while...

Too much NPK and too much water, will never allow grass to mature in cool-season country,,, IMHO...

[turfmd101]

Originally Posted by Smallaxe

I agree completely...
Healthy turf will do a lot of things with less fertilizer and less water, that the overmanaged(over messed with) lawns will struggle to accomplish...

Do you guys in the South have turf that will eventually develop into a 'mature' lawn???

Around here we have lawns that have not been micro-managed and/or overly fed/irrigated or any of those misc. activities... When we look closely at those lawns they have root density and depth that is able to take a lot of abuse and still remain strong...
There is no comparison of these ancient lawns that were never overseeded, aerated, dethatched, irrigated, sprayed or fertilized to the 'managed' lawns,,, other than the dark green that you'd get with a little N and spot spraying broadleaf once in a while...

Too much NPK and too much water, will never allow grass to mature in cool-season country,,, IMHO...

Yes. I can get my St. Aug to develop roots 14" to 16" deep. My best lawn ever had roots 20" to 22" deep.
Yes this makes them almost invincible. Environmental stress causes minimal stress.
I also use very little N.
Yes, the invention of the automatic sprinkler system caused the disappearance of mature landscapes.
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[Green_Will]

Originally Posted by Smallaxe

I wonder why the concept of healthy/mature turf is so illusive/allusive???

I think it is because there are few people cutting grass that actually care about anything beyond cutting the grass and making money. To understand plant health, we have to understand and care about and spend time learning and researching plants. We cannot care for anything if we have no idea what it needs.

Grass should be addressed just like any other plant. One thing I see overlooked a lot is roots... If you pulled a plant out of a pot and the roots were just below the surface, you would decide something was wrong. Grass is no different. Grass is being watered daily sometimes multiple times a day here. Why? I'm also beginning to think aeration should be done every fall to improve soil compaction to promote root growth.

Good post! It's a good conversation starter!

[Green_Will]

Originally Posted by Smallaxe

So it is safe to assume that buying, and applying, 'organic products' at the higher cost is what makes the 'organic lco'...
Perhaps another question about 'organics' is: "What constitutes healthy turf?"

Again, I think we are talking about ignorance. I'm about to sound like a Tree Hugging Liberal here for a second, but here it is: Every time you eat an ear of corn, a potato or an apple you are ingesting some of this stuff that doesn't ever leave. If you want to know how safe it is, look at bee populations, bird populations or just look at outlawed chemicals in Europe. It's not about organics being 'better' for lawn health. Organics are safe for living things in general. Less chemicals = better.

[Green_Will]

Just a note here, I am not attempting to start an argument with anyone who uses chemicals on lawns. I use chemicals on lawns. I'm switching chemicals where and when I can so I can become an 'Organic LCO'. I am just submitting my opinion based on my education, research and understanding.