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  #11  
Old 11-24-2012, 07:37 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Originally Posted by phasthound View Post
SumaGreen is not considered a fertilizer. Some of the microbes are N fixing bacteria. Many of the others promote root development. The idea is to augment the natural process of mineralization. http://nmsp.cals.cornell.edu/publica...factsheet2.pdf
So are we talking about consuming the OM in the soils w/out replacement??? This article focussed on the reality of having the fertilizer applied at the correct time and never once suggestted adding microbes to make things happen...

Not sure how this article supports the buying and applying of microbes...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
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  #12  
Old 11-24-2012, 12:34 PM
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heritage heritage is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
So are we talking about consuming the OM in the soils w/out replacement??? This article focussed on the reality of having the fertilizer applied at the correct time and never once suggestted adding microbes to make things happen...

Not sure how this article supports the buying and applying of microbes...
One thing for sure with this product Smallaxe, when there is Carbon at the dinner table (in the soil) these N fixing microbes work FAST in warm soils when Mineralization is working and a high rate of available N from them, gives a response.

At the 2012 standard rate applied in summertime, I saw too much release of N, and caused me disease issues.

In Spring the Product may be the right fit. I wonder if there was something to apply with the June application to turn off/ slow the rate of N release by the microbes???

Having used urease inhibitors with Urea applications to slow things down worked for Chemical Nitrogen.

What could we add to a June Application of Sumagreen to slow release of Microbe produced N when soil temps get warmer, which is a Disease playground........
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  #13  
Old 11-24-2012, 05:38 PM
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phasthound phasthound is offline
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Smallaxe "So are we talking about consuming the OM in the soils w/out replacement??? This article focussed on the reality of having the fertilizer applied at the correct time and never once suggestted adding microbes to make things happen...

Not sure how this article supports the buying and applying of microbes... "


Heritage "One thing for sure with this product Smallaxe, when there is Carbon at the dinner table (in the soil) these N fixing microbes work FAST in warm soils when Mineralization is working and a high rate of available N from them, gives a response.

At the 2012 standard rate applied in summertime, I saw too much release of N, and caused me disease issues.

In Spring the Product may be the right fit. I wonder if there was something to apply with the June application to turn off/ slow the rate of N release by the microbes???

Having used urease inhibitors with Urea applications to slow things down worked for Chemical Nitrogen.

What could we add to a June Application of Sumagreen to slow release of Microbe produced N when soil temps get warmer, which is a Disease playground........"


Good observations from both of you.

We specialize in putting together lawn care programs which effectively reduce NPK inputs while still meeting the quality demands of our clients. We do this for economic, agronomic, and environmental reasons.
Most conventional programs are aimed at providing green grass without addressing the importance of maintaining a healthy population of soil microbes. This approach can lead to weakened root systems which increase nutrient runoff, irrigation requirements and pesticide usage.

Also the sole reliance on conventional methods does little to improve soil health. The addition of organic matter and microbial stimulants can provide much more to the plant than a few necessary elements which will keep a lawn green. Adding them to a program has been shown to increase root mass, reduce irrigation needs, improve nutrient uptake and strengthen the natural immune systems of plants.

Smallaxe, I don't believe I have ever posted anything stating that adding OM should not be part of any type of lawn care program, quite the opposite. I included the Cornell Publication merely to point out the importance of microbial activity because this subject is rarely covered in lawn care education. IMO, it is critical to understand how this plays a role in providing green grass with less impact our health and the environment. Oh, and our pocket books as the cost of fertilizer keeps rising and billions of $'s in taxes are spent on cleaning up our water.

Heritage, SumaGreen may not be the best choice for a June application. At that time of year, we recommend a granular product which is high in very slow release organic matter and is impregnated with a natural growth regulator and inhibits diseases.
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  #14  
Old 11-25-2012, 07:55 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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So Barry, are you saying that Sumagreen has material in it that adds OM to the soil??? Compost physically adds OM to the soil, because it is made up of OM...

For dog spots, caused by extreme application of liquid urea(urine),,, one possible way of 'tieing up that N quickly', is to add sugar or molasses, thus changing the carbon to N ratio...

So when addressing Heritage's concern about the excessive release of N, during the growing season by over active microbials; would a food like soybean meal work better becuz it is harder to digest???

Heritage,,, have you checked the amount of water going to these lawns??? microbials really take off in excessive water environments and as you've noted,,, disease problems follow...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
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  #15  
Old 11-25-2012, 08:45 AM
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phasthound phasthound is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
So Barry, are you saying that Sumagreen has material in it that adds OM to the soil??? Compost physically adds OM to the soil, because it is made up of OM...

For dog spots, caused by extreme application of liquid urea(urine),,, one possible way of 'tieing up that N quickly', is to add sugar or molasses, thus changing the carbon to N ratio...

So when addressing Heritage's concern about the excessive release of N, during the growing season by over active microbials; would a food like soybean meal work better becuz it is harder to digest???

Heritage,,, have you checked the amount of water going to these lawns??? microbials really take off in excessive water environments and as you've noted,,, disease problems follow...
The microbiology in SumaGreen and other similar products can increase root mass which is organic matter. The increase in root mass can help improve soil structure. We recommend several products as tools to increase OM and improve soil health. Compost, organic and organic-based fertilizers, meals and soil inoculates are all good choices if used properly and are cost effective.

In regards to "microbials really take off in excessive water environments and as you've noted,,, disease problems follow..." It would be more accurate to say that excessive water is a factor in causing turf diseases because it favors pathogenic microbes over beneficial microbes.
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  #16  
Old 11-25-2012, 10:53 AM
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heritage heritage is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
So Barry, are you saying that Sumagreen has material in it that adds OM to the soil??? Compost physically adds OM to the soil, because it is made up of OM...

For dog spots, caused by extreme application of liquid urea(urine),,, one possible way of 'tieing up that N quickly', is to add sugar or molasses, thus changing the carbon to N ratio...

So when addressing Heritage's concern about the excessive release of N, during the growing season by over active microbials; would a food like soybean meal work better becuz it is harder to digest???

Heritage,,, have you checked the amount of water going to these lawns??? microbials really take off in excessive water environments and as you've noted,,, disease problems follow...
Yep smallaxe, It was my own lawn, good soil drainage and less than 1.5" input per week on PR that was never in a summer dormant state.

But I live in a river valley, and humidity and air movement are issues and leaf wetness longer than 10 hours is common. Again soil drainage is very good here.
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  #17  
Old 11-25-2012, 11:05 AM
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heritage heritage is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phasthound View Post
Smallaxe "So are we talking about consuming the OM in the soils w/out replacement??? This article focussed on the reality of having the fertilizer applied at the correct time and never once suggestted adding microbes to make things happen...

Not sure how this article supports the buying and applying of microbes... "


Heritage "One thing for sure with this product Smallaxe, when there is Carbon at the dinner table (in the soil) these N fixing microbes work FAST in warm soils when Mineralization is working and a high rate of available N from them, gives a response.

At the 2012 standard rate applied in summertime, I saw too much release of N, and caused me disease issues.

In Spring the Product may be the right fit. I wonder if there was something to apply with the June application to turn off/ slow the rate of N release by the microbes???

Having used urease inhibitors with Urea applications to slow things down worked for Chemical Nitrogen.

What could we add to a June Application of Sumagreen to slow release of Microbe produced N when soil temps get warmer, which is a Disease playground........"


Good observations from both of you.

We specialize in putting together lawn care programs which effectively reduce NPK inputs while still meeting the quality demands of our clients. We do this for economic, agronomic, and environmental reasons.
Most conventional programs are aimed at providing green grass without addressing the importance of maintaining a healthy population of soil microbes. This approach can lead to weakened root systems which increase nutrient runoff, irrigation requirements and pesticide usage.

Also the sole reliance on conventional methods does little to improve soil health. The addition of organic matter and microbial stimulants can provide much more to the plant than a few necessary elements which will keep a lawn green. Adding them to a program has been shown to increase root mass, reduce irrigation needs, improve nutrient uptake and strengthen the natural immune systems of plants.

Smallaxe, I don't believe I have ever posted anything stating that adding OM should not be part of any type of lawn care program, quite the opposite. I included the Cornell Publication merely to point out the importance of microbial activity because this subject is rarely covered in lawn care education. IMO, it is critical to understand how this plays a role in providing green grass with less impact our health and the environment. Oh, and our pocket books as the cost of fertilizer keeps rising and billions of $'s in taxes are spent on cleaning up our water.

Heritage, SumaGreen may not be the best choice for a June application. At that time of year, we recommend a granular product which is high in very slow release organic matter and is impregnated with a natural growth regulator and inhibits diseases.
Thanks Barry,

Your anwser can help those using Granular. We are all liquid prescription applications, and Sumagreen is of course a Liquid product.

I am happy with the Idea of products like Sumagreen, but I need to have more information on the mode of action and how we can turn on/off and or suppress the Microbials depending on how the seasons forecast will look with heat and rainfall. The carbon is already there in "good soil" and carbon also in the sumagreen to feed the N fixing component(s).

How do we turn the Sumagreen Microbials OFF, without having a negative impact on the soil food web, when soil temps above 65F?
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  #18  
Old 11-25-2012, 12:51 PM
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phasthound phasthound is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heritage View Post
Thanks Barry,

Your anwser can help those using Granular. We are all liquid prescription applications, and Sumagreen is of course a Liquid product.

I am happy with the Idea of products like Sumagreen, but I need to have more information on the mode of action and how we can turn on/off and or suppress the Microbials depending on how the seasons forecast will look with heat and rainfall. The carbon is already there in "good soil" and carbon also in the sumagreen to feed the N fixing component(s).

How do we turn the Sumagreen Microbials OFF, without having a negative impact on the soil food web, when soil temps above 65F?
Use lower rates as soil temps rise.
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The nation that destroys its soil destroys itself.
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  #19  
Old 11-26-2012, 11:49 AM
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heritage heritage is offline
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Barry,

Is there someone from Sumagreen that can answer my question?

Your short reply does not address the fact that once we have applied the Sumagreen microbes, they will continue to thrive and multiply as Carbon (their food source) is present in the warming soil conditions as spring goes into summer.......

Let's stick to the Sumagreen specifically, so we can find a way to fit it into our program(s), without the Disease potential issues that follow too much of the microbes Nitrogen production at the worst time.....Late Spring thru Summer.
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  #20  
Old 12-03-2012, 07:08 PM
Pilgrims' Pride Pilgrims' Pride is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heritage View Post
Cost was good.

Easy to use.

Easy on the enviornment.

Response with standard rates.

Less fertilizer recordkeeping.
Anybody else?
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