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  #111  
Old 02-14-2013, 07:04 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Its about soil structure, and soil structure alone... keeping soil structure simple... and if the plumber is sick of providing information then the plumber doesn't have to even start on my threads... I really wish I could have the moderators keep him off my back...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
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  #112  
Old 02-14-2013, 07:28 AM
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Small,
You seem to be having a problem in your yard which is mostly clay. Did you add sand to it?
  #113  
Old 02-14-2013, 09:22 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
Its about soil structure, and soil structure alone... keeping soil structure simple... and if the plumber is sick of providing information then the plumber doesn't have to even start on my threads... I really wish I could have the moderators keep him off my back...
Why doesn't it surprise me you want to censor anyone who disagrees with you or points out your inaccurate information. I might stay out of your threads, and I try to now given the almost irresistible urge to gouge my eyes out after reading your posts from the shear amount of bad information. But alas, I still care a little about the users of this site getting at least some accurate information. If you don't want to read my posts then make use of the ignore feature.
  #114  
Old 02-14-2013, 09:45 AM
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Oddly enough in the Texas Turf Association publication is an article about some research being done at A&M about irrigation and run off. They basically covered the soak cycle concept but I get the feeling the research is more about what is carried off the lawns with different soil structures and owner activies.

They seem to be testing for fecal coliforms as well as fertilizers and other things that will impact surface water.
  #115  
Old 02-14-2013, 10:15 AM
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heritage heritage is offline
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Some really good information posted in the last weeks. I will continue to add more OM this season and keep an eye on the OM % on the soil tests.

The N restrictions should help as well.


http://permaculturenews.org/2012/01/...ees-with-ease/

This website was helpful with better understanding of "Soil Structure" and the Greening The Desert Video is a must see IMHO.


Cheers from New Jersey.
  #116  
Old 02-14-2013, 10:50 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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I have already established a soil structure article and have made comments regarding it... a discussion about soil structure is what would be desirable,,, but we haven't had a discussion about soil structure,,, even at the starting point...
If something constructive to the soil structure discussion as started in the post, then I missed it... it was hijacked right from the beginning with URLs about other articles, arguements about something off topic, and snotty remarks from a plumber who claims he's helping the other users... even by formulating 2 REASONS that soil structure could be enhanced with one method... there were no counterpoints in which people could benefit from but only snotty remarks from the eye gouging plumber... this is all normal behavior for y'all - but not for me... it is just too stupid...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
  #117  
Old 02-14-2013, 12:22 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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blah, blah, blah. If you spent less time whining and complaining and more time learning then we would all benefit.
  #118  
Old 02-14-2013, 03:12 PM
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Smallaxe,

After over 100 posts on this thread, and no replies to your attempt to restart it under Lawn Maintenance you may want to reconsider how you are expressing your point of view.
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  #119  
Old 02-14-2013, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
Its about soil structure, and soil structure alone... keeping soil structure simple... and if the plumber is sick of providing information then the plumber doesn't have to even start on my threads... I really wish I could have the moderators keep him off my back...
So your posts have only been about soil structure? Really now?? Let's take a look and follow the rabbit if you can...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
Should we consider different strategies for building the excellenct soil structure we'd like to see, in accordance with,,, different soil textures???

Or,,, can we just go ahead and apply any of the long list of products(organic) and eventually we get the soil we want regardless of where we started from???

Organic product salesmen give us the impression that it is just that simple, only it takes time...

For those who would bash, then let's first answer the Y/N part of the question ,,, THEN,,, move on toward the Why/Whynot,,, part of the question,,, THEN,,, go ahead and bash, if you must... but this is a serious topic that REQUIRES serious thought...
First post: Soil structure, Soil texture, Organic products, and Condescension/Whining

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
Thatch is a tight dense mat of living and dead roots and stems that grow above the soil... not a desirable scenario at all...
On the other hand,,, soils that perculate adequately, allowing your water soluable ferts to work their way deeper into the rootzone is going to increase the mass of deeper roots, which means a lot better scenario...
Thatch and Perculation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
Actually it is the N being trapped at the surface that encourages roots to grow upward instead of down into the soil... that is why aeration is used to punch holes in the thatch and allow water and NPK to get down into the depths and feed the roots below the surface of the thatch layer...
There might be confusion as to the definition of thatch and dead grass clippings... check this out...
Nitrogen, Surface root growth, Aeration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
That's a pretty good mental picture in describing why thatch, once it starts continually build and eventually, ALL the food and water is consumed at the surface...

How do you think that your irrigation strategy, of irrigating ONLY when water stressed,,, affects the development of the 'thatch' as described in the IL ext. article???
And better yet,,, do you believe that this type of thatch can be remediated, by switching to your irrigation strategy???
Thatch (again), Irrigation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
That's fine that we got the definition of thatch out of the way... what I'm talking about is the soil... how is the soil doing 1" down, 2" down,, and 3" down???

That is what the OP is all about... thatch was just a side note that does not directly apply...
Soil below surface (1", 2" 3" down)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
Does St. Aug build thatch the same way as KBG does,,, as described by the following:
* " Thatch is a layer of tightly intermingled living and dead grass stems and roots which develops between the soil surface and green vegetation, says David Robson, University of Illinois Extension horticulture educator, Springfield Center." *

The concept I'm working with as far as soil structure building deeper into the soil, involves the idea of drying the surface while keeping the depths moist,,, just as you are promoting...
If your St Aug. is thatching over with stems and roots all intertwining at the surface [b]above[/]b the soil level, becuz that is where the water sits every 2-3 days,,, then I think we're both talking about the same thing as far as THATCH goes...
In theory,,, thatch would stop growing upward like that if it were dry for 4-6 days before the next irrigation event, and eventually the dead material in the thatch would rot away and become plant food as well...
Thatch (again), Irrigation (again)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
It may be a little known fact that dumping ferts of any kind on the surface of the ground may do little or nothing for the root zone 2" below the surface... Developing the correct maintenance plan for the actual grass variety and its climate to accomplish it,,, is what is needed...

Maybe kelp, humic acids, and chicken poo is all any lawn needs,,, but how do those nutrients get down into the soil where roots might actually grow if the soil 2" deep had fertility and water???

If a lawn is muddy,,, it can certainly used a bit of soil structure to help it drain...
The BCSR on wiki uses the term soil fertility,,, but doesn't address soil structure either...
I get the feeling that soil structure and root development is seen only through the eyes of:
dumping some product onto the turf and it will magically be created... this is pretty lame for an "Organic" thread... no offense, just an honest opinion...
Fertilizer, Maintenance Plans, Irrigation (again)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
One strategy that I have found effective is to irrigate one day,, when the surface has dried,,, until the water begins to puddle and make mud at the surface... the next day I check to see how deeply that water penetrated through the night and see it the roots have been satisfied...
If not I take note which areas, or zones, could use a little more and that is turned on the second time in 24hrs... Once that is determined I'm able to set a system of watering up that focusses on the needs of the plant... It gives me clues to perculation, retention and rootzone vitality...

The goal of course is to create a positive soil structure right at the surface that doesn't require watering 2 days in a row... The puddling is a SYMPTOM of poor soil structure(esp. plating on the surface) and that is the focus of this thread...
Irrigation (again), Perculation, Retention, Rootzone Vitality

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
I didn't think we were in disagreement... in fact you are one of the few people I've come across that manages irrigation by letting the surface dry before watering... some say that you wait too long, but I say there is NO WAY for anyone to know what you see and when you react... so I certainly would be foolish to tell you,,, that you are wrong and ignorant of technologies... that's NOT me...

It amazes me that when people have questions and problems, that they never check the soil... looking at the leaves, but not the roots or the environment of the roots just astounds me...
Irrigation (again), Condescension (again)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
I'm still astounded that so-called pros in the horticulture can not look at a piece of dirt and make a determination of texture and structure... Do they even have a soil test for STRUCTURE??? so-called pros can not feel the soil in their fingers to determine wet or dry... I need a tool for that job... and that all determinations about about roots are made without ever looking at the rootzone... organics, sustainablilty, back to nature is SOOOOOO complicated that it takes allthe tech we can muster and it still can't give us soil structure or air/moisture ratio or even a clue as to how to build it... what a joke... organic lawn care indeed!!!
More Condescension

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
Soil Structure, CEC and air/moisture ratio has more to do with plants utilizing any of these elements, whether a soil test says they exist or not... With adequate SOM and a healthy population of the correct microbes,,, the elements are balnced at the microscopic root hair level...
Can a plant utilize the microbes that end the root hairs to get the nutrients they need, when they need them???
Ideally,,, YES...

So what can be done and what should be done in order for the "Organic" ferts to actually function as predicted???
Is it true that syn ferts do much better than organic ferts in correcting the problems with poorly managed soil???
When organic ferts fail, is it likely becuz of poor management???

This is meaning of the thread... and although side comments serve to augment an understanding of the topic at hand,,, the focus needs to be on the soils of the organic concept... it appears to me that IF,,, you can't get direction from a lab or a text book,,, then we can't THINK at all...
Soil Structure is one of those things... can't be tested in a lab so it requires a JUDGEMENT on the part of the LCO...
CEC, Air/Moisture Ratio, Organic Ferts, Synthetic Ferts, More Condescension

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
No "Soil Structure" contributions here and now on this Forum,,, just new references to the Prerequisite to Organics 101... Not very useful when everyone out there is crying "FUNGUS DISEASE",,, in a couple of months... Does anyone have an understanding as to a possibility that their surface fungal activities may have a lot to do with how the Soil Structure handles water??? No they don't... does the organics forum give them the tools needed to grasp the possibility of having their surface fungus building soil structure INSTEAD of fungal disease??? Why try to explain to the irresponsible, eco-killers the , "whys and wherefores", when we can just bash them,,, into believing that the OMRI products don't have those issues... we're up to page 5 w/out a single contribution to the concept to this thread, in accordance with the question brought up... I'm done now...
More Condescension, Fungal Disease

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
If SOM is the magic bean that improves soil,,, then we needn't concern ourselves with water interaction with soils... drainage and retention need to be in balance and structure needs to go deeper into the profile every year or the cultural practices are sub-standard...

I say the latter... am I wrong??? What can specifically answer this question???
Does anyone want to bet that anything can happen OTHER THAN a specific answer to that question...
More Irrigation, More Condescension

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
Compost and vermipost, consistantly wet or dried between waterings doesn't matter... I'll bet this works on any soil texture also... 1 dimensional living soils... that's "DEEP"...
Too easy to get lost in ramblings if we consider all of the environmental factors that make up Elaine's Living Soils... one dimendsion at a time... 1 dimensional thinking makes it easy to avoid a simple question that that is outside the formula box...
Anymore repeat ideas and concepts to rehash over and over and over again... Mmmm, compost....
More Irrigation, More Condescension, Enviromental Factors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
Thanks Skipster for pointing out another Kurl URL that has hypothetical AND irrelevant fantasy as if it is science...

it shows that the issue between educated vs. indoctrinated is truer than ever... because the agenda of global warming is fact, no matter how stupid the rationale is ,,, for anything baloney put forth by the proponents of global warming,,, there is always some self-esteem indoctrinated student believer who will say,"I BELIEVE."
Even MORE Condescension

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
Whenever anyone can no longer make a point on merit,,, they always resort to personal attacks... that is becuz they know they have no truth to offer but they are driven to push an agenda no matter what... shouting down an opponent is what stupid people have been doing to get ahead in the world... they believe that no one will notice that they can't make intelligent contributions if they scream,,, [b]"IGNORANT FOOL!!! " at everyone ELSE...
I realize that this adage may be something that many people have never heard and are probably incapable of grasping the significance of it... for the others...
**Let a word to the wise be sufficient**
And MORE Condescension

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
Finally!!! Plz do stop posting on my threads,,, IF you are NOT going to address the meaning of the thread...

Now we have another irrelevant bickering about something other than the purpose of the thread... perhaps the bickering spewers could start a thread of their own,,, and others would be able to discuss SOIL STRUCTURE w/out bashers coming in and mocking the very idea of enhancing soil structure...

Sorry to become sour but,,, It astounds me that y'all imagine you're clever....
More Condescension/Whining

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
We can influence the process as spoken of ad nauseum, in phrases like , 'proper irrigation and culural practices',,, so let's try offering an opinion and explanation as to whether:
(1.) allowing the top inch of soil to dry out b4 another irrigation event,,, or (2.) keeping the suface soils wet through out the growing season...

If you mean 'struck by lightning' in the sense that I've just took a stand on an issue,,, that the plumber and company will personally attack saying how ignorant I am without any coherent rebuttal, then I would agree...
A simple choice and simple statement as to WHY is a good starting point,,, so URLs are not discussion points in giving an opinion about a simple concept of rrigation...
More Irrigation, More Condescension/Whining

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
Not sure where you were going with this,,, but since the issue of the rain forest were brought up; one thing we(USA) could've done as a helper to the agricultural development into the forest was,,, bring them chippers... stop the "slash and burn" technique, by introducing the alternative known as mulch...

Then when I was studying terra preta, I find out that many areas are solid clay, I thought WOW,,, we didn't think of woodchips building the soil in one area, with the use of mulch!!! even the 'slash and burn' people developed terra preta...
I don't know of a culture in human history that didn't understand mulch and soils as a matter of common sense,,, other than this "educated" one...
Rain Forests

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
With civil discourse eventually we are all on the same page... when we run with the distractions and rabbit trials we no longer are able to "Figure out"(as you put it), the meaning of my posts... but feel free to agree with the plumber about how stupid I am...
More Condescension/Whining

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
Now if I kept the surface of the soil moist, all growing season with irrigation,,, that means I could go onto the turf at anytime and scratch away the brown clippings on the barespot and the ground would be moist... even though the grass is dry, those barespots would be holding moisture right under the grass clippings... this isn't sand so I should take a look into the root zone and see how much moisture there is in the top 3" or 4" of topsoil...

Remember the article from "Clay Platelets" thread had listed the Wet/Dry cycle as being one way that structure is formed, along with freeze/thaw cycle...
For that reason alone I have no problem letting the grass soils dry for a week or so, before turning on the irrigation again... afterall, if my turf is going to "stress out" in a week then I have bigger problems...
Irrigation (Again)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
The other thing about allowing the surface to dry out is to promote the health and well-being of the aerobic microbesin the soil... we know if the soil is dry the anaerobic microbes are NOT going to thrive and brief periods of dormancy in the aerobic microbes will not hurt a thing...
Pathogenic microbes such as lawn diseases are much more likely to thrive if the aerobic microbes are continuously stifled in their growth...

So,,, for those 2 reasons I believe that allowing the soil surface to dry out once in a while, or often, is superior as a "cultural practice" to always keeping the soil damp...
The conclusion for me is that when the phrase "Proper Irrigation" is used,,, it is refering to allowing the surface to dry...

I gave 2 reasons as to why I believe what I believe... what reasons are for the other side???
Irrigation (Again), Microbes (Again)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
Here is a good example of what I've been talking about... response meaning:
I was wrong on 2 things, but no explanation why... one of my mistakes was agreeing with the MO extension office...

and now we are to believe that moisture in the soil has nothing to do with "proper irrigation"... perpetual wet surface is Improper irrigation and anyone that allows it to continue is NOT a turf manager... that's my definition,,, at least in part... OH MY,,, I bet that's wrong too... what a joke...

Don't tell me that OBE isn't relevant to the remarks in this thread... is anyone going to comment further if their discussion points don't meet with kiril's approval??? snide remarks from the plumber that are without rational patterns of understanding,,, is exactly what OBE is all about... what information did kiril actually put forth??? none... derision is not information...
Irrigation (Again), Condescension/Whining (Again)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
We're up to post 100 and what headway was made in the conversation about soil structure... I'm to stupid to talk to so I guess it doesn't matter...
Whining

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
MO extension made the statement... address that...

The point that you didn't see the difference with,,, is that the subject is set at Soil Structure...

Whatever the plumbers think about MAD has nothing to do with soil structure....

This is getting way to stupid...
And even MORE Condescension...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
I have already established a soil structure article and have made comments regarding it... a discussion about soil structure is what would be desirable,,, but we haven't had a discussion about soil structure,,, even at the starting point...
If something constructive to the soil structure discussion as started in the post, then I missed it... it was hijacked right from the beginning with URLs about other articles, arguements about something off topic, and snotty remarks from a plumber who claims he's helping the other users... even by formulating 2 REASONS that soil structure could be enhanced with one method... there were no counterpoints in which people could benefit from but only snotty remarks from the eye gouging plumber... this is all normal behavior for y'all - but not for me... it is just too stupid...
And even more Condescension/Whining...

Where will the next rabbit pop up??
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  #120  
Old 02-14-2013, 04:19 PM
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phasthound phasthound is online now
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Well that was a painful recap.
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The nation that destroys its soil destroys itself.
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