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Old 02-03-2013, 07:00 PM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is online now
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That's fine that we got the definition of thatch out of the way... what I'm talking about is the soil... how is the soil doing 1" down, 2" down,, and 3" down???

That is what the OP is all about... thatch was just a side note that does not directly apply...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
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  #12  
Old 02-03-2013, 07:44 PM
turfmd101 turfmd101 is offline
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Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
That's a pretty good mental picture in describing why thatch, once it starts continually build and eventually, ALL the food and water is consumed at the surface...

How do you think that your irrigation strategy, of irrigating ONLY when water stressed,,, affects the development of the 'thatch' as described in the IL ext. article???
And better yet,,, do you believe that this type of thatch can be remediated, by switching to your irrigation strategy???
It's all based on wilt, more than drought. Wilt is the start of drought. Drought grows roots. The deepth of the roots with healthy tissued feeders which have hopefully developed during spring VS depth of soil dryness dimensionalized because, soil does not dry out horizontally, downward, evenly. That with root depth dimensionalized dictate, which areas will show drought first. The shallow ones and so fourth. When 40% to 50% of a 100% become wilted. There's your shallow root area. Work on them. Catch up to the other 60% not wilted yet, to become equal in wilt. Then it will apply best. Rules do apply! You will get some overwatering. But that will disappear. Controlled with rain fall. MANUALLY! The times will become longer between intervals and mowing will effect. But this, UN spoiled way gives strength,,, without extra food.

St. Aug thatch, would be. Seville, any dwarf. Variety. Ooollllddd St. Aug lawns and mostly shady areas. These prime areas favor the CHOKER TISSUE issues with wilt sooner than soil conditions would dictate. Overwatering can also cause CTI NEGATIVE EFFECTS.

Sanding with white builder type sand, brings root to plant soil contact. Only way to prolong drought in any scenario.

IMHO, N applied to dwarf varietys of ST. Aug,,, WILL CREATE CTI. Minimal, minimal N. OK. Mostly MOP w/ minor. Or the ultimate MILORGANITE!
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  #13  
Old 02-03-2013, 07:46 PM
turfmd101 turfmd101 is offline
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WATER WHEN WILT IS A EXPERIENCED MANAGED EVENT. Can be taught,, but not if you believe in schedules,,, or having the ability to schedule random events. Bet you can't do it without waste and it takes more hands on. "WASTE"!!!
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Last edited by turfmd101; 02-03-2013 at 07:55 PM.
  #14  
Old 02-04-2013, 08:29 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is online now
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Does St. Aug build thatch the same way as KBG does,,, as described by the following:
* " Thatch is a layer of tightly intermingled living and dead grass stems and roots which develops between the soil surface and green vegetation, says David Robson, University of Illinois Extension horticulture educator, Springfield Center." *

The concept I'm working with as far as soil structure building deeper into the soil, involves the idea of drying the surface while keeping the depths moist,,, just as you are promoting...
If your St Aug. is thatching over with stems and roots all intertwining at the surface [b]above[/]b the soil level, becuz that is where the water sits every 2-3 days,,, then I think we're both talking about the same thing as far as THATCH goes...
In theory,,, thatch would stop growing upward like that if it were dry for 4-6 days before the next irrigation event, and eventually the dead material in the thatch would rot away and become plant food as well...

Soil structure builds from the surface downward,,, and I believe that as the thatch dissolves into the soil itself that the sol structure would actually begin to form under the thatch layer... just as one might find aggregates forming under a mulch layer in the garden...

That is why I'm interested in whether or not your SA develops thatch where your watering system is in place...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
  #15  
Old 02-04-2013, 10:16 AM
turfmd101 turfmd101 is offline
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My observance has thought, that soil surface tention, is the bases for thatch to quantify development. By the way, we do agree on thatch by your defining of it.

Then, throw in someone,,, with something,,, causing damage to the foliage,,, the foliage doesn't damage itself so it is most likely,,, MAN MADE. This will cause UN natural, premature desire by the plant to, "DROP FOLIAGE". Faster than natural,,, disrupting cycling performance. "Health soil is like your stomach". It gives a functioning organic existence,,, the ability to process tools to support life. Very importante soil is. Because, POOR ACTIONS BY MAN OCCUR... Daily... For $!
Its an evil necessary. Many factors apply to soil surface tension development,,, but few are common. Earthworms good. The just bring the other necessary evil!

Know how to tell when you have shallow roots even though you don't experience drought? "ITS MUDDY". That's the part left out of my soil, moisture, root thing.
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Old 02-04-2013, 10:24 AM
turfmd101 turfmd101 is offline
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Dwarfs problems are thatch with a spongy layer of dead and live runners all holding roots up in poor, non soil, non survivable situation.
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  #17  
Old 02-04-2013, 04:41 PM
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heritage heritage is offline
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A good read.......


http://soilfirst.com/everyone-is-an-...guy/#more-1351
  #18  
Old 02-04-2013, 05:14 PM
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phasthound phasthound is online now
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I feel the same way as Joel does. It's amusing how conventional guys are starting to catch up with was long held in disdain by the industry and now are calling it "new".

BTW, Joel took a lot of grief when he was at Rutgers.
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  #19  
Old 02-04-2013, 05:57 PM
Skipster Skipster is offline
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I'm not sure I would put much stock into anything Joel Simmons has to say. His poor understanding of soils rendered him speechless when Dr. Schlossberg from Penn State pointed out that his attachment to BCSR was BS.

But, on a larger note, I don't think anyone posting on this thread adequately understands thatch. In lawn care, thatch isn't *that* big of a deal! I've seen some lawns over the years that were too thatchy, but those were few and far between. Remember, thatch can only be produced by an actively growing plant. If you have thin spots or poor growing conditions, you don't have thatch production!

Thatch management is a huge issue in intensively managed golf and athletic turf, but isn't much of an issue in lawns.
  #20  
Old 02-04-2013, 06:35 PM
turfmd101 turfmd101 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipster View Post
I'm not sure I would put much stock into anything Joel Simmons has to say. His poor understanding of soils rendered him speechless when Dr. Schlossberg from Penn State pointed out that his attachment to BCSR was BS.

But, on a larger note, I don't think anyone posting on this thread adequately understands thatch. In lawn care, thatch isn't *that* big of a deal! I've seen some lawns over the years that were too thatchy, but those were few and far between. Remember, thatch can only be produced by an actively growing plant. If you have thin spots or poor growing conditions, you don't have thatch production!

Thatch management is a huge issue in intensively managed golf and athletic turf, but isn't much of an issue in lawns.
Skip, your kool,,, but one of the most ding dong ( respectively ) things you said is "hey man, thatch isn't a problem in thin areas"... Duh,,, where it's thin,,, but it is for the living. To a degree. St. Aug thatch comprised of premature shedding foliage. Like repeated mower blade damage ( destroying foliage tissue ). If a rainy season'
begins and areas of thick depleted foliage do not decompose,,, look out for fungus. That same rainy condition. With a good sharp blade, cutting clean, will have less potential for fungus. Normal foliage shedding will continue. Add N and each scenario with only the blade difference will still increase opportunities for pest.

Thatch can be an issue. No one is saying it's "ALLLLL WWWAAYYYYSSSS BAD". Only with multiple factors developing. Shade and wet it's always BAD. But I do agree. Sometimes it helps retain moisture in dry conditions.

Love ya skip... Be nice.
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