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  #41  
Old 02-07-2013, 07:44 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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I'm still astounded that so-called pros in the horticulture can not look at a piece of dirt and make a determination of texture and structure... Do they even have a soil test for STRUCTURE??? so-called pros can not feel the soil in their fingers to determine wet or dry... I need a tool for that job... and that all determinations about about roots are made without ever looking at the rootzone... organics, sustainablilty, back to nature is SOOOOOO complicated that it takes allthe tech we can muster and it still can't give us soil structure or air/moisture ratio or even a clue as to how to build it... what a joke... organic lawn care indeed!!!
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
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  #42  
Old 02-07-2013, 09:55 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heritage View Post
Will continue to Bridge Organics with Mineral Elements.

Adding more Carbon per application than years past.....
Just so we are clear, BCSR vs. SLAN are not synonymous with organic vs. synthetic.
  #43  
Old 02-07-2013, 03:31 PM
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heritage heritage is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
Just so we are clear, BCSR vs. SLAN are not synonymous with organic vs. synthetic.
We are clear Kiril.
  #44  
Old 02-07-2013, 04:53 PM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Soil Structure, CEC and air/moisture ratio has more to do with plants utilizing any of these elements, whether a soil test says they exist or not... With adequate SOM and a healthy population of the correct microbes,,, the elements are balnced at the microscopic root hair level...
Can a plant utilize the microbes that end the root hairs to get the nutrients they need, when they need them???
Ideally,,, YES...

Now,,, is the condition of the soil an important factor as to whether or not the natural system will operate properly???
yes...

So what can be done and what should be done in order for the "Organic" ferts to actually function as predicted???
Is it true that syn ferts do much better than organic ferts in correcting the problems with poorly managed soil???
When organic ferts fail, is it likely becuz of poor management???

This is meaning of the thread... and although side comments serve to augment an understanding of the topic at hand,,, the focus needs to be on the soils of the organic concept... it appears to me that IF,,, you can't get direction from a lab or a text book,,, then we can't THINK at all...
Soil Structure is one of those things... can't be tested in a lab so it requires a JUDGEMENT on the part of the LCO...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
  #45  
Old 02-07-2013, 05:59 PM
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heritage heritage is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
Soil Structure, CEC and air/moisture ratio has more to do with plants utilizing any of these elements, whether a soil test says they exist or not... With adequate SOM and a healthy population of the correct microbes,,, the elements are balnced at the microscopic root hair level...
Can a plant utilize the microbes that end the root hairs to get the nutrients they need, when they need them???
Ideally,,, YES...

Now,,, is the condition of the soil an important factor as to whether or not the natural system will operate properly???
yes...

So what can be done and what should be done in order for the "Organic" ferts to actually function as predicted???
Is it true that syn ferts do much better than organic ferts in correcting the problems with poorly managed soil???
When organic ferts fail, is it likely becuz of poor management???

This is meaning of the thread... and although side comments serve to augment an understanding of the topic at hand,,, the focus needs to be on the soils of the organic concept... it appears to me that IF,,, you can't get direction from a lab or a text book,,, then we can't THINK at all...
Soil Structure is one of those things... can't be tested in a lab so it requires a JUDGEMENT on the part of the LCO...


This teacher has something to offer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEtl09VZiSU
  #46  
Old 02-07-2013, 10:06 PM
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phasthound phasthound is offline
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Originally Posted by heritage View Post
This teacher has something to offer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEtl09VZiSU
I spent a couple of days listening to Elaine a couple of weeks ago at Pennsylvania Horticultural Society's 4 day organic land care course. Who says organic folks don't pay attention to soils? Soil health is the foundation of organic lawn care.

Just got home from NE Grows in Boston where we introduced ADIOS to the US. It is an organic selective post-emergent systemic control of broad-leaf weeds, crabgrass, poison ivy, knotweed and other invasive weeds. Very receptive crowd up there. Some who are successfully running organic businesses & many who are eager to learn more.

I had a great time speaking with Bob Posthuma of GeoTea Brewer, Bill Skerrett of ICT Organics, Peter Scmidt of Compost Werks and other friends whom I don't get to see as much as I would like.

And then I got out of there before the blizzard hits tomorrow.
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The nation that destroys its soil destroys itself.
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  #47  
Old 02-08-2013, 09:15 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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No "Soil Structure" contributions here and now on this Forum,,, just new references to the Prerequisite to Organics 101... Not very useful when everyone out there is crying "FUNGUS DISEASE",,, in a couple of months... Does anyone have an understanding as to a possibility that their surface fungal activities may have a lot to do with how the Soil Structure handles water??? No they don't... does the organics forum give them the tools needed to grasp the possibility of having their surface fungus building soil structure INSTEAD of fungal disease??? Why try to explain to the irresponsible, eco-killers the , "whys and wherefores", when we can just bash them,,, into believing that the OMRI products don't have those issues... we're up to page 5 w/out a single contribution to the concept to this thread, in accordance with the question brought up... I'm done now...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
  #48  
Old 02-08-2013, 10:30 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Plants obtain their nutrients from the soil via 3 primary process; Mass flow, diffusion and root interception. Mass flow and diffusion account for the vast majority of nutrient transport in soils to plants. Microbes don't magically create nutrients "at the microscopic root hair level" as axe suggests, they must be already present in the soil.
  #49  
Old 02-08-2013, 01:09 PM
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heritage heritage is offline
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Rockwool......Perlite...Sand....Even Water.

Also mediums to grow plants in.

Soilless conditions matter too.


The Techniques may be different yet plants can grow when thay have the building blocks.


Soil conditions in a forest setting have a constant recycling of organic matter that contain the essential minerals and food to feed the living soil componant.....

Apply compost/leaves/egg layer poo to a plot of turfgrass?

Spoon feed turfgrass with..........

More than one way to grow turf.

Soil conditions vary all across the world, yet turf continues to grow.....
  #50  
Old 02-08-2013, 01:27 PM
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phasthound phasthound is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
No "Soil Structure" contributions here and now on this Forum,,, just new references to the Prerequisite to Organics 101... Not very useful when everyone out there is crying "FUNGUS DISEASE",,, in a couple of months... Does anyone have an understanding as to a possibility that their surface fungal activities may have a lot to do with how the Soil Structure handles water??? No they don't... does the organics forum give them the tools needed to grasp the possibility of having their surface fungus building soil structure INSTEAD of fungal disease??? Why try to explain to the irresponsible, eco-killers the , "whys and wherefores", when we can just bash them,,, into believing that the OMRI products don't have those issues... we're up to page 5 w/out a single contribution to the concept to this thread, in accordance with the question brought up... I'm done now...
What on earth are you talking about??? Those who have made the move to increase SOM & soil biology have substantially reduced fungal disease problems.
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Barry Draycott

The nation that destroys its soil destroys itself.
Franklin D. Roosevelt
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