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  #81  
Old 02-10-2013, 07:06 PM
turfmd101 turfmd101 is offline
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I'll bet there's a farmer, who's been farming, 40 plus years. Who probably knows more about soil, throughout his environmental life experiences. Is wanting to set this bickering straight by telling his research, not reading someone else's research STUFF. But its axes dad and the boy must fight his battle. Axe, I get it. It's to bad, more read research written, than those that develop it to writing...
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  #82  
Old 02-10-2013, 07:10 PM
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ELS Landscape ELS Landscape is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turfmd101 View Post
I'll bet there's a farmer, who's been farming, 40 plus years. Who probably knows more about soil, throughout his environmental life experiences. Is wanting to set this bickering straight by telling his research, not reading someone else's research STUFF. But its axes dad and the boy must fight his battle. Axe, I get it. It's to bad, more read research written, than those that develop it to writing...
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Like when the USA told South Africa to use the same soil management practices that caused the dust bowl?

Too bad, so sad. Common sense is not common and we have to pay tons of tax dollars for research on dirt.
  #83  
Old 02-10-2013, 07:44 PM
turfmd101 turfmd101 is offline
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If it was the UN. Well, guess no one saw that coming. Probably because it was just that. A desert dust bowl. Sounds like thats the problem. H2O. In the jungles around the world, there are tribes with no research to read for farming,,, but they get rain and they have water and THEY EAT.

Obviously the rep for the US. Did not understand the complexity of his task along with the $ appropriated wisely. They have money to make this happen? Sure hope mother nature needs money.
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  #84  
Old 02-11-2013, 06:16 AM
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ELS Landscape ELS Landscape is offline
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  #85  
Old 02-11-2013, 08:09 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phasthound View Post
... http://www.extension.umn.edu/distrib...s/7403_02.html
[I]Forming soil structure
We can influence this process in the many ways that have been spoken of here ad nauseum. There is no magic bean. I simply cannot understand why this turns into a fire fight every time.

I will now be struck by lightning.
We can influence the process as spoken of ad nauseum, in phrases like , 'proper irrigation and culural practices',,, so let's try offering an opinion and explanation as to whether:
(1.) allowing the top inch of soil to dry out b4 another irrigation event,,, or (2.) keeping the suface soils wet through out the growing season...

My answer is:
No. 1 ,,, and one reason for it is to overcome the 'platy structure' issue in the case of clay textured soils...

If you mean 'struck by lightning' in the sense that I've just took a stand on an issue,,, that the plumber and company will personally attack saying how ignorant I am without any coherent rebuttal, then I would agree...
A simple choice and simple statement as to WHY is a good starting point,,, so URLs are not discussion points in giving an opinion about a simple concept of rrigation...

The drawback of the OBE strategy in the gov'tt school system is that the outcomes are ensured without an understanding as to how those outcomes(conclusions) were reached... The notion of "let's think this through" is completely foriegn ,,, isn't it???
Sorry to irritate the fellow that hates this, but here goes...
__________________
*
Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
  #86  
Old 02-11-2013, 08:25 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turfmd101 View Post
I'll bet there's a farmer, who's been farming, 40 plus years. Who probably knows more about soil, throughout his environmental life experiences. Is wanting to set this bickering straight by telling his research, not reading someone else's research STUFF. But its axes dad and the boy must fight his battle. Axe, I get it. It's to bad, more read research written, than those that develop it to writing...
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Not sure where you were going with this,,, but since the issue of the rain forest were brought up; one thing we(USA) could've done as a helper to the agricultural development into the forest was,,, bring them chippers... stop the "slash and burn" technique, by introducing the alternative known as mulch...

Then when I was studying terra preta, I find out that many areas are solid clay, I thought WOW,,, we didn't think of woodchips building the soil in one area, with the use of mulch!!! even the 'slash and burn' people developed terra preta...
I don't know of a culture in human history that didn't understand mulch and soils as a matter of common sense,,, other than this "educated" one...
__________________
*
Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
  #87  
Old 02-11-2013, 08:51 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is online now
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Originally Posted by ELS Landscape View Post
I will ask to have my post deleted and will not ever post in one of your threads. Figuring out the meaning of your threads are difficult at best.
Not trying to hurt your feelings,,, but when I find myself in a situation that I can't determine where an idea is coming from I take a few minutes to analyse the thoughts going into the statements put forth... when I come up with the wrong mindset it is usually sorted out after brief discussion...
With civil discourse eventually we are all on the same page... when we run with the distractions and rabbit trials we no longer are able to "Figure out"(as you put it), the meaning of my posts... but feel free to agree with the plumber about how stupid I am...
__________________
*
Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
  #88  
Old 02-11-2013, 09:39 AM
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ELS Landscape ELS Landscape is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
Not trying to hurt your feelings,,, but when I find myself in a situation that I can't determine where an idea is coming from I take a few minutes to analyse the thoughts going into the statements put forth... when I come up with the wrong mindset it is usually sorted out after brief discussion...
With civil discourse eventually we are all on the same page... when we run with the distractions and rabbit trials we no longer are able to "Figure out"(as you put it), the meaning of my posts... but feel free to agree with the plumber about how stupid I am...
I think as has been said before, there are no magic means and there are several components to maintaining and improving soil structure. Each would have multiple implications thus the rabbit holes.

Not letting the soil dry out too much as well as keeping it too wet is a problem. If by plumber you mean an irrigation guy? They do study how much water to apply to soils and it does depend on many factors.

Plant type
Root Depth
Soil Type
Climate

Then you have to considered application rates and so forth to minimize waste.

Or are you talking about plumbing from what they can supply to the compost pile?
  #89  
Old 02-11-2013, 09:41 AM
Skipster Skipster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
We can influence the process as spoken of ad nauseum, in phrases like , 'proper irrigation and culural practices',,, so let's try offering an opinion and explanation as to whether:
(1.) allowing the top inch of soil to dry out b4 another irrigation event,,, or (2.) keeping the suface soils wet through out the growing season...

My answer is:
No. 1 ,,, and one reason for it is to overcome the 'platy structure' issue in the case of clay textured soils...

If you mean 'struck by lightning' in the sense that I've just took a stand on an issue,,, that the plumber and company will personally attack saying how ignorant I am without any coherent rebuttal, then I would agree...
A simple choice and simple statement as to WHY is a good starting point,,, so URLs are not discussion points in giving an opinion about a simple concept of rrigation...

The drawback of the OBE strategy in the gov'tt school system is that the outcomes are ensured without an understanding as to how those outcomes(conclusions) were reached... The notion of "let's think this through" is completely foriegn ,,, isn't it???
Sorry to irritate the fellow that hates this, but here goes...
I wonder if you're not overthinking this.

Soils build structure in nature -- without human management. Sometimes the soil dries out between water events (rain, in this case) and sometimes it doesn't. Even soils in deserts and tundras have soil structure.

Of course, lawns are different than natural landscapes. But, I get the vibe that you're thinking that a useful soil structure can't be created without a strict watering program.

Let's not forget that a lot of things happen in nature -- all we have to do is not screw them up. If we avoid grossly overwatering or underwatering, soil a useful structure will still build, even if the soil is sometimes a little too wet or a little too dry. If we avoid doing the things that are detrimental to plant life (overfertilizing, underfertilizing, improper mowing, etc), we encourage adequate OM and microbial populations to help build soil structure.

In short, when we do the things that produce a healthy turf and healthy plant life, we build soil structure. You can't build soil structure without doing the things that we already know to produce healthy plants.
  #90  
Old 02-11-2013, 10:24 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipster View Post
1) It was conducted on creeping bentgrass maintained at 5 mm height. Not really relevant to lawn care.
Are you suggesting that similar results may not be seen on turf maintained at a different height? Do you have some data to support that conclusion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipster View Post
2) They fertilized at about 3X the amount of N commonly used for bentgrass putting greens. It's common sense that if you overfertilizer with N, you're going to get a lot of Pythium activity in your control plots. They obviously tried to stack the deck in their favor and didn't want to test against common conditions
This is all you have .... accusing the researchers of fixing the experiment? WOW!

At the max rate of applied N, that amounts to 4.6 lbs/1000 sqft of nitrogen..... and that is 3x the nitrogen rate? Amusing ... just who is stacking what here?

Ignoring the fact the N rates on greens is highly variable, where did you come up with this 3x the "commonly used" rate number? How much N was commonly used on bentgrass greens in the late 80's and early 90's? Certainly you have some data to support this? It is also "common sense" that high nitrogen leads to lush growth which is more susceptible to Pythium. Was that the case here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipster View Post
3) The conventional product they tested against was applied at 10% of the lowest rate on the product label. If you don't apply the product according to the directions, you're not going to get any control
What conventional product specifically are you talking about? Further, what does this have to do with the compost tested?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipster View Post
4) The authors reached a different conclusion than you proposed. Their conclusion sounds a lot like what I've said:

"We conclude, therefore, that the suppression of Pythium
diseases of creeping bentgrass with compost amendments is
dependent on the microbial properties of the amendment and
the soil microbial responses following application...."
I didn't "propose" anything, and it does not support what you have said. An example:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipster View Post
Read your own link -- adding microbes is not even a short-term solution -- it doesn't work at all! The microbes involved in OM mineralization are always present in the soil and will thrive when the conditions exist that favor turfgrass growth. Adding a few drops of microbes per square foot makes no difference at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipster View Post
Wrong. All I did was ask for data.
Not wrong, and I provided it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipster View Post
What you have provided was data that backed up my assertions from previous threads -- bio control of diseases in lawn situations is inconsistent at best and has not been proven to be practical or as effective as conventional methods.
Really now ..... see above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipster View Post
It's obvious you either haven't read the entire paper or you don't understand it. Why else would you draw conclusions opposite from those the authors of the paper wrote?
What conclusion would that be skip? Provide the quote when I drew any conclusion based on the linked article.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipster View Post
Is that why you cite articles about creeping bentgrass putting green management (using management regimes against all current recommendations and impractical for field use) to make a point about lawn care systems?
Amusing and typical. You claimed the cited literature did not show any positive results and no field research has been conducted. I choose one of the cites to demonstrate you were wrong ..... and you are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipster View Post
Perhaps you should read more and pots less.
And we close with your typical immature, unprofessional behavior.
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