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  #31  
Old 04-01-2013, 05:03 PM
Digdeep Digdeep is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidsteerman View Post
Cat is switching the MFG of their minis over to Wacker.

HP does not make the big difference in mini's - the hydraulic power does.
Why piss away $$$ in excess burnt fuel digging the same hole a more economical machine can dig? Bobcat always had roughly ~10HP more in their same size units as ours, but we could out dig their units with stronger hydraulics and were much smoother while doing so.

Some G series photos. Larger door opening and one piece door. larger cab as well.
CAT is only Wacker from the 302.7D and down. All other minis 303.5E up to 308E are CAT and will be built in Georgia starting with the 308E starting late this summer.

Do you just think hydraulic pumps make power on their own? HP does make a difference when you are driving a hydraulic pump under load. Part of your digging power comes from hp that is able to maintain the pressure and flow of the pump when it is working hard.
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  #32  
Old 04-01-2013, 05:25 PM
Skidsteerman Skidsteerman is offline
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Originally Posted by Digdeep View Post
Do you just think hydraulic pumps make power on their own? HP does make a difference when you are driving a hydraulic pump under load. Part of your digging power comes from hp that is able to maintain the pressure and flow of the pump when it is working hard.
Ummm that's what hydraulics do, create power. Yes, it takes engine HP toturn the pumps but excess HP is just pissing $$$ out your exhaust filter <- yes tier 4 uses a exhaust filter.

In all the years selling these Deere mini excavators, I've never had a complaint for lack of hydraulic power and I can not ever recall a time while digging with them myself taxing the engine to stall out. I've put my fair share of hours on most all our size minis except the 27 and that's only because we don't stock many of that size.

The design of the hydraulics in our mini excavators don't require excessive HP to turn them while under max load.

The Deere 60D was the only mini with an econo / power switch. Now the new G series it will come in most of the models. Power mode for hard digging and econo for light excavation work.
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  #33  
Old 04-01-2013, 05:47 PM
Digdeep Digdeep is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidsteerman View Post
Ummm that's what hydraulics do, create power. Yes, it takes engine HP toturn the pumps but excess HP is just pissing $$$ out your exhaust filter <- yes tier 4 uses a exhaust filter.

In all the years selling these Deere mini excavators, I've never had a complaint for lack of hydraulic power and I can not ever recall a time while digging with them myself taxing the engine to stall out. I've put my fair share of hours on most all our size minis except the 27 and that's only because we don't stock many of that size.

The design of the hydraulics in our mini excavators don't require excessive HP to turn them while under max load.

The Deere 60D was the only mini with an econo / power switch. Now the new G series it will come in most of the models. Power mode for hard digging and econo for light excavation work.
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Just for the record, I never said the Hitachi/Deere minis were bad units in the first place. And multiple OEMs offer an "Eco Mode".

So before the 6% drop in engine hp Deere's D's were just inefficient machines pissing $$$ out their exhaust? I'd be willing to bet that most of the hydraulic guts- hystat and aux pumps are still the same. I don't think it has anything to do with developing more efficient performance, but more to do with emissions and getting below a mandated hp threshold. BTW...didn't they just go with a simple EGR since it's under 75hp. No real hoops to jump through under 75hp, and I think it's even easier under 38hp.

Sounds like Bobcat's mantra- If you can't fix it, feature it!

Hystat pump flow was reduced 4% probably to increase aux flow by 3%, ground speed was decreased 6% (doesn't mean much) and the standard counterweight was increased 6%.
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Last edited by Digdeep; 04-01-2013 at 05:51 PM.
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  #34  
Old 04-01-2013, 05:54 PM
Digdeep Digdeep is offline
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Originally Posted by Skidsteerman View Post
Ummm that's what hydraulics do, create power. Yes, it takes engine HP toturn the pumps but excess HP is just pissing $$$ out your exhaust filter <- yes tier 4 uses a exhaust filter.
Is this Deere's argument for their CTLs running mulchers- all that excess hp and engine torque those other guys have just wastes fuel??
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  #35  
Old 04-01-2013, 06:06 PM
Digdeep Digdeep is offline
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I meant to say displacement...that 3.1L engine in the 333 is cute
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  #36  
Old 04-02-2013, 09:26 AM
Skidsteerman Skidsteerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digdeep View Post
Just for the record, I never said the Hitachi/Deere minis were bad units in the first place. And multiple OEMs offer an "Eco Mode".

So before the 6% drop in engine hp Deere's D's were just inefficient machines pissing $$$ out their exhaust? I'd be willing to bet that most of the hydraulic guts- hystat and aux pumps are still the same. I don't think it has anything to do with developing more efficient performance, but more to do with emissions and getting below a mandated hp threshold. BTW...didn't they just go with a simple EGR since it's under 75hp. No real hoops to jump through under 75hp, and I think it's even easier under 38hp.

Sounds like Bobcat's mantra- If you can't fix it, feature it!

Hystat pump flow was reduced 4% probably to increase aux flow by 3%, ground speed was decreased 6% (doesn't mean much) and the standard counterweight was increased 6%.
I think there are some changes to our hydraulics but not positive on that.

Tier 4 affects 25hp up to 100hp for 2013 and we are using both EGR and exhaust filter systems.

My comment about the econo switch was not directed towards who does or does not offer but what we're offering now.

Once I get a chance to put a G series through its paces ill have a better handle on wether we maintained similar digging power or loss or gained. I have most of my seat time on the 35 and 50 size units.
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  #37  
Old 04-02-2013, 09:32 AM
Skidsteerman Skidsteerman is offline
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Originally Posted by Digdeep View Post
Is this Deere's argument for their CTLs running mulchers- all that excess hp and engine torque those other guys have just wastes fuel??
I'm always for more HP in our CTs but I don't have any control over that. I believe we need stronger hi flow aux in psi. 3,300-3,500 I'd like to see another 1,000 added to that.

As far as engines go, I'm actually looking forward to us changing from the 250 series engines to the Yanmar plant. Maybe less CCs but more HP and higher torque.
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  #38  
Old 04-02-2013, 03:20 PM
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YellowDogSVC YellowDogSVC is offline
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I'm hoping that going to a smaller displacement engine in skids and CTL's isn't going to turn out like Ford's powerstroke when it went from 7.3 to 6.0 and bumped hp and torque up considerably. I just had two heads go out in my 6.0 which only has 84k miles and has had all scheduled maintenance, been driven gently, and still had it's share of EGR and other emission-related problems.

I'm in a Bobcat s750 which has the displacement but lacks the torque. Only lately as the engine has hit close to 750 hours have I noticed that I can stall the machine fairly easy binding up the mulcher or while digging.
I too am curious to see what the G series JD does when put through it's paces. I think the feedback from the CASE guys has been favorable with the smaller displacement motors in the bigger machines but how they will hold up over time remains to be seen. I personally like the design of the current series and was interested in the improvements that were coming to the E's.
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  #39  
Old 04-02-2013, 05:37 PM
Skidsteerman Skidsteerman is offline
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Originally Posted by YellowDogSVC View Post
I'm hoping that going to a smaller displacement engine in skids and CTL's isn't going to turn out like Ford's powerstroke when it went from 7.3 to 6.0 and bumped hp and torque up considerably. I just had two heads go out in my 6.0 which only has 84k miles and has had all scheduled maintenance, been driven gently, and still had it's share of EGR and other emission-related problems.

I'm in a Bobcat s750 which has the displacement but lacks the torque. Only lately as the engine has hit close to 750 hours have I noticed that I can stall the machine fairly easy binding up the mulcher or while digging.
I too am curious to see what the G series JD does when put through it's paces. I think the feedback from the CASE guys has been favorable with the smaller displacement motors in the bigger machines but how they will hold up over time remains to be seen. I personally like the design of the current series and was interested in the improvements that were coming to the E's.
All my past experiences with Yanmar (1988 and older) have been all good. They have their science down with great performance , excellent reliability (as long as its serviced) and decent on fuel consumption.

When Takeuchi dropped the Yanmar in their TL150 to go with a Kubota in their TL250, the number one complaint was lack of power from operators I've talked to. So I guess we'll see how well Yanmar does in our sslders and ctls.

As far as the ford 6.0 goes, well it isn't the small displacements fault for all that engines problems. I recently had a friend do a **** ton of work on his 6.0. The tech he hired to preform all his engine work replaced the heads with brand new IH heads. Both blew head gaskets when the truck was under load pulling. He had ARP studs in it as well. Before they blew the gaskets, one of the new heads dropped a valve seat in a few miles out of the shop.

They say you're better off machining your old heads.
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  #40  
Old 04-18-2013, 02:39 PM
Skidsteerman Skidsteerman is offline
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Operated our first 333E unit that showed up the other day - just ran around the parking lot with it.

First impression is WOW, how quiet it is. I could talk to the guy standing next to me at the back of the unit at full throttle in a normal voice and not yelling.

Switchable controls through three mods on the unit we ordered in, ISO, H and foot in one unit. The way over due long awaited keyless start option too.

Side panels very easy to R&R over the D series, about time Deere.

Steel shin guard and unit seals up tight like a new car.

Unit set to go out on a demo next week, rain putting things off for now.
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