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Old 08-28-2014, 08:54 PM
mowcrazy mowcrazy is offline
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26.5 koehler efi question

hello all, had something really weird happen today with my scag TT and was hoping someone could possibly have a little information.

I mowed for several hours today no problems (mower has 100 hours trouble free) when all at once when mowing a ditch line which was not very steep mower acts like it runs out of gas...... I knew it couldn't be as it was filled up a few hours before. I would try and start it back up and it would try and fire for just a sec and die back off. what was weird was the fuel pump would sound when you turn the key to the on position but didn't sound just right. Sounded like it was just free spinning and not getting that grunt right at the end like it got primed up. So Called my dealer and He said that hes still learning about the motor and had me do some simple checks such as fuses, Pulled fuel line off at engine to be sure it flowed free and it did. Checked fire and it was good.

With all this being said I figured it almost had to be something with the fuel injection. So we pulled the mower out of the ditch and I decided to call me dealer back to see if the mower had a low oil shut off. I figured maybe on the ditch with mower leaning maybe it thought it had low oil. He said he wasn't sure about that motor. So I checked the oil level. It was at the lower level of the checkers. So I put a little over a half quart of oil in it to get it up to correct level. I turned the key to the "on" position and the fuel pump sounded and it primed like it always did prior with the slight grunt at the end like it hit its prime. I looked at my help and told him I bet it starts this time. He said "yeah, it primed up that time didn't it". I turned the motor over and it started right the hell up.

So, I know that was a long story to read but can someone give me some type of clue as to why you would lose fuel pressure because I was a half quart low on oil????? Maybe it wouldn't have happened if I weren't on the angled ditch side???? I just wondered if the Delphi efi systems worked in a weird way like a diesel engine. I know diesels are oil drive injectors in trucks. Atleast my power stroke was..........
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Old 08-28-2014, 09:49 PM
Curtis Curtis is offline
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I had a rocker arm come loose on mine under 50 hrs, the dealer found out about a service recall after the fact. Have your dealer see if there's one on your engine. Also how much gas did you have in it ? I don't think you're suppost to fill the tank extremely full. Those lifters are hydraulic.
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Old 08-28-2014, 10:36 PM
mowcrazy mowcrazy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curtis View Post
I had a rocker arm come loose on mine under 50 hrs, the dealer found out about a service recall after the fact. Have your dealer see if there's one on your engine. Also how much gas did you have in it ? I don't think you're suppost to fill the tank extremely full. Those lifters are hydraulic.
I just fill to the bottom of the white plastic..... But you know what? Where I ran out of gas was on a hill so when I tried to open the fill cap the fuel was trying to run out?? Maybe there was a breather hole that couldn't breathe?? I don't know....... What did your mower act like when the rocker was loose??
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Old 08-28-2014, 11:00 PM
ducnut ducnut is offline
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I'm guessing, you had adequate fuel supply to the system. If not, always make sure the higher tank, or both, is/are full and what you're pulling off of. Pumps will not survive being ran dry too many times.

If your pump doesn't build pressure and immediately shut off, the pump is going bad. The intermittent issue, like you may have experienced, is the beginning of it. It'll have intermittent building of pressure and shutting off. Sometimes it sounds like it hits pressure and bogs, but, doesn't shut off. I went through all that, with mine. Kohler's area tech said they are notorious for bad pumps.

They, also, have an updated fuel filter that your dealer needs to retrofit, as it is finer micron and supposedly helps the pump last.


I was having voltage issues and the Kohler tech said to replace the grounding strap with an actual wire. That took care of that issue.


Finally, my ECU took a dump. Kohler replaced it, as well. The thing was throwing every code, under the sun.

After those few updates/issues, it's been back to running perfect. I really like this engine, now that we've got it straightened out.
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'05 Hustler FasTrak, 42", Honda GXV530
'13 Toro Timemaster 30"
'02 Lawn Boy SilverPro 21"
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  #5  
Old 08-28-2014, 11:12 PM
mowcrazy mowcrazy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducnut View Post
I'm guessing, you had adequate fuel supply to the system. If not, always make sure the higher tank, or both, is/are full and what you're pulling off of. Pumps will not survive being ran dry too many times.

If your pump doesn't build pressure and immediately shut off, the pump is going bad. The intermittent issue, like you may have experienced, is the beginning of it. It'll have intermittent building of pressure and shutting off. Sometimes it sounds like it hits pressure and bogs, but, doesn't shut off. I went through all that, with mine. Kohler's area tech said they are notorious for bad pumps.

They, also, have an updated fuel filter that your dealer needs to retrofit, as it is finer micron and supposedly helps the pump last.


I was having voltage issues and the Kohler tech said to replace the grounding strap with an actual wire. That took care of that issue.


Finally, my ECU took a dump. Kohler replaced it, as well. The thing was throwing every code, under the sun.

After those few updates/issues, it's been back to running perfect. I really like this engine, now that we've got it straightened out.
Wow man, thanks for all that info!!!! I still just wish sometimes that when something broke, that it STAYED BROKE! That way it would be easier to find........ I was told that these new motors can be hooked up to a scanner?? Wonder if they can tell anything by hooking it up?? Once again thanks for your reply!
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Old 08-28-2014, 11:37 PM
ducnut ducnut is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mowcrazy View Post
I still just wish sometimes that when something broke, that it STAYED BROKE! That way it would be easier to find........]
Well, your ECU recorded the event. See below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mowcrazy View Post
I was told that these new motors can be hooked up to a scanner?? Wonder if they can tell anything by hooking it up??
Absolutely! This engine is so advanced, you'll be shocked. With the diagnostic equipment, the entire history of that engine can be downloaded. When the key is turned on, you can watch every parameter of that engine, including self-checking every sensor, as it happens. When it's running, you can even watch the engine change ignition and injector timing, individually, on each cylinder. With my engine's download, the tech could see every sensor and connector I unplugged, while I was trying to find something not fully connected. It's crazy what this engine can do.

If your dealer doesn't have the diagnostic package, you need to encourage him to get it or find a different dealer. Any Kohler-certified dealer can work on your machine, even though he may not be a Scag dealer. A Scag dealer (who is my Toro dealer) works on my Hustler and I'm the only Kohler EFI customer they have. I only get Hustler-specific parts from my Hustler dealer. The catch is your dealer has to be willing to send a tech to the Kohler EFI school, in order to purchase the package. It's quite the commitment.

I know what the shop tech, Kohler area tech, and I have went through to learn what we have about this engine. It's a complicated thing that just takes time to learn all its intricacies. Personally, I feel some shops just aren't competent enough to ever figure out how to work on them. Some shops are unwilling to learn and, therefore, refuse to order Kohler EFI. It's unfortunate that Hustler has dropped this engine from their lineup. I'm so glad I spotted the option and managed to get one ordered in the short timeframe they were available. The dealer-level really needs to catch up to the technology-level.

And, you're welcome!
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1st Class Lawn Service

'13 Hustler X-ONE, 60", Kohler ECV749 EFI
'05 Hustler FasTrak, 42", Honda GXV530
'13 Toro Timemaster 30"
'02 Lawn Boy SilverPro 21"
Stihl BR600 blower
Stihl BG55 blower
Stihl FS55R trimmer
Stihl KM55R Kombi system
Stihl MS180C chain saw
Stihl HS45 hedge trimmer
RedMax Reciprocator
Echo SRM225 trimmer
Echo GT-2000 trimmer
Gravely WB edger
Husqvarna 580BTS blower
'06 Chevrolet Silverado
'13 Bravo Star, 7'X12', V-nose
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  #7  
Old 08-29-2014, 12:02 PM
WayneJessie WayneJessie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducnut View Post
Well, your ECU recorded the event. See below.



Absolutely! This engine is so advanced, you'll be shocked. With the diagnostic equipment, the entire history of that engine can be downloaded. When the key is turned on, you can watch every parameter of that engine, including self-checking every sensor, as it happens. When it's running, you can even watch the engine change ignition and injector timing, individually, on each cylinder. With my engine's download, the tech could see every sensor and connector I unplugged, while I was trying to find something not fully connected. It's crazy what this engine can do.

If your dealer doesn't have the diagnostic package, you need to encourage him to get it or find a different dealer. Any Kohler-certified dealer can work on your machine, even though he may not be a Scag dealer. A Scag dealer (who is my Toro dealer) works on my Hustler and I'm the only Kohler EFI customer they have. I only get Hustler-specific parts from my Hustler dealer. The catch is your dealer has to be willing to send a tech to the Kohler EFI school, in order to purchase the package. It's quite the commitment.

I know what the shop tech, Kohler area tech, and I have went through to learn what we have about this engine. It's a complicated thing that just takes time to learn all its intricacies. Personally, I feel some shops just aren't competent enough to ever figure out how to work on them. Some shops are unwilling to learn and, therefore, refuse to order Kohler EFI. It's unfortunate that Hustler has dropped this engine from their lineup. I'm so glad I spotted the option and managed to get one ordered in the short timeframe they were available. The dealer-level really needs to catch up to the technology-level.

And, you're welcome!
Having been in the automotive repair industry for over 30 years it's sad that Kohler is having these issues at all. The EFI system they use is quite rudimentary and not that complex. Their problems aren't that they are applying new tech to their products. It's been tried and true since the early 80s. Poor quality components and poor execution of the components are causing these failures. That and many owners are probably still using pressure washers to clean their engines. Water/soap can wreck havock on EFI components.
Our largest and most "professional" dealer carries Gravely, Wright, Toro and won't order any of them with EFI because he does not want to spend the money to send a tech to school and purchase the diagnostic equipment to properly fix them. He is where many new car dealers stood in the mid 80s. Like it or not EFI will be the norm in another year or two. It's just sad to see Kohler having these issues when it isn't necessary.
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  #8  
Old 08-29-2014, 10:19 PM
ducnut ducnut is offline
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Join Date: May 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WayneJessie View Post
Having been in the automotive repair industry for over 30 years it's sad that Kohler is having these issues at all. The EFI system they use is quite rudimentary and not that complex. Their problems aren't that they are applying new tech to their products. It's been tried and true since the early 80s. Poor quality components and poor execution of the components are causing these failures. That and many owners are probably still using pressure washers to clean their engines. Water/soap can wreck havock on EFI components.
Our largest and most "professional" dealer carries Gravely, Wright, Toro and won't order any of them with EFI because he does not want to spend the money to send a tech to school and purchase the diagnostic equipment to properly fix them. He is where many new car dealers stood in the mid 80s. Like it or not EFI will be the norm in another year or two. It's just sad to see Kohler having these issues when it isn't necessary.
^^^ I agree, with all of it.

I find it alarming how cheap the connectors are. Also, that everything is exposed. I'd think a tidy box of some sort would make sense to keep the ECU, fuse blocks, etc out of the weather. On my FasTrak/Honda GXV, there is only one connector exposed and that is where the engine wiring hooks into the chassis wiring.
__________________
1st Class Lawn Service

'13 Hustler X-ONE, 60", Kohler ECV749 EFI
'05 Hustler FasTrak, 42", Honda GXV530
'13 Toro Timemaster 30"
'02 Lawn Boy SilverPro 21"
Stihl BR600 blower
Stihl BG55 blower
Stihl FS55R trimmer
Stihl KM55R Kombi system
Stihl MS180C chain saw
Stihl HS45 hedge trimmer
RedMax Reciprocator
Echo SRM225 trimmer
Echo GT-2000 trimmer
Gravely WB edger
Husqvarna 580BTS blower
'06 Chevrolet Silverado
'13 Bravo Star, 7'X12', V-nose
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