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  #41  
Old 02-17-2003, 07:12 PM
Bluesteel Bluesteel is offline
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"You are just ignorant about this whole situation and I won't waste anymore time on this or you other then to say that the INS has cracked down on employers in the last 2 decades."

LOL! Not going to waste any more time? Then you go on and on with more distortion/distraction verbage! hehe

Please honor your own pledge buddy. I'd like to hear someone who can stay on topic and not get so emotional.
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  #42  
Old 02-17-2003, 07:28 PM
bobbygedd bobbygedd is offline
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i say we all just crack a beer, spark one up, and listen to some greatful dead. p.s. whats an oakie? okie?
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  #43  
Old 02-18-2003, 02:25 PM
Bluesteel Bluesteel is offline
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What's an Okie?

BobbyGedd, thatís an interesting question and your timing is so perfect, it has to be intentional. I was waiting for Organix to answer, but I guess he sees his hypocrisy and is avoiding a response. So, allow me.

Okies were people that migrated from the severely drought stricken south-central US to several western states in the early 1930ís looking for ANY work. Probably the most significant migration was from Oklahoma to California. If you havenít seen it, the movie ďThe Grapes of WrathĒ is a classic.

Can you see the hypocrisy? ďEven though I think immigration should be better controlled, I sympathize with these people for trying make a better life for themselves and their families. It is natural for human beings like any other animal to migrate to where they have a better chance of survivalĒ (Point #5 from an earlier post).

Organix is preaching any amount of immigration from anywhere at any time. But it seems that he favors any immigration except LEGAL immigration of white men. When he sees that Iím from Oklahoma and canít defend himself with logic, he launches the typical left-wing knee-jerk hypocritical (but miss-spelled) personal attack. Clinton would be proud.
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  #44  
Old 02-18-2003, 03:05 PM
bobbygedd bobbygedd is offline
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blue, i agree with u 100%. if my family was stuck in a country where they drank from water sources that held thier own fecies, they were borderline starved, there was no medical attention to be had for my sick infant, and there was no way to make a living, i too would do whatever it takes to care for my family. and i mean whatever it takes, legal or illegal! the majority are comming here to work, earn money, not slash someones throat , steal it, and slide back under the fence. good grief, u guys r too much. i got news for ya, in the plant i work at, they use them regularly, for work that no one else wants. these people do the job, and dont complain, and they arent takin any work away from american boys and girls, ive seen it with my own eyes, on a rare occasion when we hire an american to do general labor, they dont last 4 hrs. they ask to use the restroom, and slide out the back door never to return.
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  #45  
Old 02-18-2003, 03:06 PM
Organix Organix is offline
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clinton would have spelled okie right i'm sure. I still prefer oakie. How many names do you have though man?

I just don't like red neck idiots, and thought I'd throw some of your stereotypes back at you. Just because your an okie does not make you a redneck idiot. You did that all on your own. Although geography does seem to play a factor.

I guess when it comes down to it, I was not really being honest. I guess now that I think about it, the reason immigration does not bother me that much, besides the fact that my ex wife was one of the million el Salvadorians fleeing the American backed death squads, is the fact that I really like and relate to those people more than I like people like you. I feel like they are helping to water down your population. Soon, your kind of ignorance will be bred away. So yes, blue, you do have a reason to be scared. They are helping to eliminate your kind. You narrow world view is being eclipsed and your kind will soon be relegated back to boondocks. So be afraid, be very afraid.
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  #46  
Old 02-18-2003, 03:20 PM
Bluesteel Bluesteel is offline
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Dang man, I thought you said you were through with this thread.
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  #47  
Old 02-18-2003, 07:08 PM
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lee b lee b is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Organix
I feel like they are helping to water down your population. They are helping to eliminate your kind. You narrow world view is being eclipsed and your kind will soon be relegated back to boondocks. [/B]
Eliminate "our kind", white christians of European descent and one day you'll wake up in the kind of third-world cess-pool you claim these people are trying to escape. Are you igorant or what? Don't you realize that "our kind" has made this country into what it is today? Don't you realize that Mexicans made Mexico into what it is today? I'm sure somebody on here will label me a racist, and if telling the truth is racism, then I'm guilty.
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  #48  
Old 02-18-2003, 10:02 PM
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brucec32 brucec32 is offline
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Some of the pro immigration arguments I'm seeing here are missing the point. Some I suspect are choosing to miss the point for their own reasons.

No, Americans generally WON'T work a $6-$8 per hour job with few or no benefits, seasonal only work in many cases, a limited career path, physical discomfort, low status, and a limited career span (not many 45+ y/o lawn techies out there) Would YOU? But they just might be a number of Americans willing to do this work if instead of borderline poverty level wages, they made higher than average wages.

The reason wages are so low in the industry is mass immigration, plain and simple, which has provided a cheap source of labor for businesses. As society has become more technologically oriented, more sedentary, demographically older, and less socially accepting of physical labor and laborers, there was a shortage created. A shortage of young, willing, able people willing to do work more difficult than standing behind a register or sitting in a climate controlled office. The natural economic response to such a shortage is to increase wages until the need is met. The reason computer programmers make more than lifeguards is not because of some "right" to make more, being more skilled, but because if you want someone to show up to write code, you have to outbid others for their services. Otherwise, if the pay is the same, a lot of computer programmers will just go chill on the beach with the girlies instead.

When immigration was held at historical customary levels (pre 1960's laws expanding immigration) , there was not a sufficient number of immigrants to fill this need, and labor wages rose steadily along with the rest of society's standard of living. But when the floodgates were opened, real wages, adjusted for inflation, plummeted, and the result was a devastation of wage structures for Americans in these fields. And newsflash...this is a huge proportion of the population. Remember, half the population has an IQ less than 100, by definition. Are they all supposed to go learn to be web designers or surgeons or engineers? To ignore this segment of the population and damn them to low paid work is to ask for higher taxes on those of us who do earn more, more social unrest, more crime, and tons of problems down the line.

I doubt many of the people tossing the word "racist" around here can actually define it accurately. But it's hardly racist to want to preserve one's safety, prosperity, and way of life. I don't even have children, but anyone who cares about theirs should wake up.

Some people really just don't get it. My own father was incensed that he was told to "move along" by a police officer when he stopped at the local "day labor" spot to pick up "a couple of mexicans" to pick up sticks in his yard. He uses them rather than pay a legitimate lawn service to do this type of work because even though he was able to retire at age 54, (now is 69) and lives in a $700,000 home in a ritzy neighborhood, he doesn't seem to feel he can spare more than $8/hour for this miserablely boring and uncomfortable stoop labor. ("if they hustle" he says). How generous of him. And because day laborers have caused so many problems with businesses, the city passed laws against such street corner soliciting for work. It doesn't occur to him that this type of labor causes problems for legitimate businesses, creates no tax revenue, undermines wages for Americans, and generally creates economic decline in the center of the town I grew up in. The very elitists who love the cheap labor they provide would pitch a hissy fit if they ever rented a home in THEIR neighborhood. But for those lower wage Americans...it's perfectly fine if 8 adult Mexican men move in to the rental home next door and park their trucks, trailers, bobcats, etc, on the lawn.

Some people really just can't look far enough past their own selfish noses to see what's happening.

(pssst...those who claim I just can't cut it and compete....I have more than one source of income I'll be retired by 50 sitting on a beach somewhere)


To sum up, wages for labor in America would be higher w/o the mass immigration, people would fill the jobs (say at $15-$20/hour?), and yes, some things would cost more. But it would be the true economic cost, not an artificially lower one, with the balance paid by taxpayers, legitimate honorable businesses, working class Americans. And god forbid, some of these truly lazy Americans (they're the ones making $$$, not the guys being offered work at $8) out there might actually have to mow their own lawns or fork over $.20 more for a Big Mac Meal.

Oh yeah, let's just say you paid Americans $8/hour MORE than currently to mow lawns, up to say $16/hour to start. I bet you'd get some applicants then. That would add what, $6 to the cost of getting your typical suburban lawn cut? (.75 man hours/lawn) For 30 visits a year, wow, that's a whopping $180 a year! Gee, how would we Americans survive w/o immigrants? Of course until the source of labor dries up, you CAN'T pay this wage and compete. Not until everybody is forced to play by the rules.
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  #49  
Old 02-18-2003, 10:15 PM
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brucec32 brucec32 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Evan528
Well said Bobby!!!! The only reason there is employment oppertunities for these "aliens" is because Americans dont want to take the posisions and/or work nearly as hard! Without them at least in my area I think most landscaper would have gone out of business years ago from lack of labor. And no they do not work for peanuts (cheap labor) here. They know they are quit valuable and most demand top pay.
"top pay". Yes, I see Mexican landscapers driving around all the time in their new Lexus' headed to the golf club. And they always live in the nicest neighborhoods, because you see, they make the big bucks. <eyeroll> They live 8 guys to a house because they're in fraternities, not because they don't make much.
The problem is, "top pay" for labor to some of you guys is barely enough to scratch out an existance on.


"because Americans don't want to take positions" True, not for the peanuts they're being offered. The welfare state has offered them an easier and roughly equivilent existence. Why bust your rear 40 hours a week when you can just have a baby, or maybe burglarize one home a week? Lots more free time, that way.

When I was in high school, all my friends worked for a commerical lawn service, and I worked construction. Why? Because it paid triple what McDonald's did and had more "status" too. It was seen as an honorable, even cool job to have. Now, unfortunately, wages have bottomed out and this field is seen as "immigrant work" by an increasing segment of society. No wonder we can't hire their kids in the summer. Parents are afraid their kid will actually like it and be condemned to a life of near-poverty. Only someone coming from a 3rd world country where conditions are much worse can afford to work for low wages at a often seasonal job. How convenient for you as employers of them! But I'm sure you're just trying to help them out in life. Bless your hearts.

Hospitals would go out of business too if no Americans wanted to endure years of medical school and long hours for $8/hour. Have you guys who hire others to do the work sat on your rear ends so long that you forget this is hard work too? It deserves higher than average pay for a good worker, not lower. You see, the EASY jobs are supposed to be the low paying ones. Like talent scout for a strip club, or Porsche dealership new car test driver.

Closing the immigration spigot off would, ironically, eventually solve all our labor problems as wages rise and more decent human beings started working in this field again. Aren't you tired of the revolving door employment system?

Last edited by brucec32; 02-18-2003 at 10:25 PM.
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  #50  
Old 02-18-2003, 10:21 PM
Flex-Deck Flex-Deck is offline
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Bluesteel - so now you are putting Dixie Chopper in the same catagory as illegal immagrints? At least Dixie Choppers are made in the US of A and they have no factories farmed to other countries.
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