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  #31  
Old 05-03-2013, 04:53 PM
Hissing Cobra Hissing Cobra is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
Funny .... because I just put some seed down on several different properties and instructed the homeowners to water once a day for 10 mins (rotors on clay loam) and temps in the 80's and 90's and I have germination. The OP has temps in the 60's.
Very easy to do when you've got a clay environment and nothing drains. In fact, the clay holds the moisture for a lot longer than the sandy environment around here. For what it's worth, I'm 20 minutes north of the OP, so I'm pretty confident that I know the type of soil I have here by Cape Cod.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
You suggested 15 mins 3 times a day with temps in the 60's without even knowing what type of sprinklers the guy has. If I have a PR of 1.5 in/hr and an ET of 0.12 in/day .... how much have you over watered?
Well, he's either got sprays or rotors and I've talked with him (not in this thread) about watering differences between the two and how sprays will need shorter watering times due to their ability to flood an area faster.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
Again .... why not? How much water do you need to apply to keep seed moist? What type of soil is the OP dealing with? Have you considered diurnal movement of water in the soil? What is the soils water holding capacity? What is the exposure and aspect of the site?
Around here in our pure sandy environment, you need a lot of moisture. I've been in this industy for the past 12 years in this area and I'm pretty confident that our soil's water holding capacity is pretty much non-existant.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
Everything. No consideration for soil type, no consideration for seasonal growth patterns. Anyone can throw a bunch of nitrogen at a lawn and make it look good .... temporarily.
Just because I didn't post a consideration for his soil type or growth pattern doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about. I think you underestimate where I live because I don't have my location listed as a state. Well, I live 20 minutes away from his town so I don't have to post about what's going on in his area as I already know this information.

Yes, anyone can throw Nitrogen at a lawn and make it look good.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
What coolaid have you been drinking HC? Why do you assume there is going to be weeds? Is using Tupersan/Siduron the only way to deal with weeds?
After dealing with turf for 12 straight years, I'm pretty confident in what I see, hear, and deal with on a daily basis to make a pretty good judgement call on things. I ask a lot of questions before giving out information. I'm licensed to apply these products in Massachusetts, I hold a commercial certification in tree/shrub with the state of Massachusetts, and I also hold a dealer's license in the state of Massachusetts. I used to have also have a license to apply in Rhode Island but I gave that up as I no longer work in that state.

Tupersan/Siduron is not the only way to deal with weeds and crabgrass pressure as Quincloric is another product but that's a conversation for another day. I will not get into a conversation on natural based products because I have never seen them work as effectively as people claim and neither have the Professors who teach their classes at U-Mass Amherst - of which I've sat through too many to count.


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Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
Will he? Without knowing historical weed pressure on the site you are just guessing
Not really guessing when he's in my area and I know the conditions.



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Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
Actually HC, is is mostly because of disease pressure and insufficient time for the new turf to harden off before summer temps.
That's your opinion


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Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
That is pure BS ..... and FYI he is over seeding. Are you a rep or something for these products?
Whatever you say. You're over 3,000 miles away in another state and recommending things that work for your area - none of which are effective for our area. It sounds like you're the one who's guessing on most of this stuff.

Yes, I am a dealer for these products but that doesn't diminish my knowledge of what's going on. I can also recommend many products from other companies that we don't carry so that doesn't diminish anything either. Hell, I can show him how to improve his lawn with pretty much any company's products. It's all in the "Why's, How's, Timing of treatments, and active ingredients." Being a vendor for products doesn't make me illiterate or diminish my capacity to help steer people in the right direction.
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  #32  
Old 05-04-2013, 11:37 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hissing Cobra View Post
Very easy to do when you've got a clay environment and nothing drains. In fact, the clay holds the moisture for a lot longer than the sandy environment around here. For what it's worth, I'm 20 minutes north of the OP, so I'm pretty confident that I know the type of soil I have here by Cape Cod.
And I can drive less than 5 minutes and have a completely different soil type. In fact, I have sites where I have completely different soil types on site. Further, can you point out where he said he was on the Cape?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hissing Cobra View Post
Well, he's either got sprays or rotors and I've talked with him (not in this thread) about watering differences between the two and how sprays will need shorter watering times due to their ability to flood an area faster.
And yet you are recommending 15 minutes 3 times a day with temps in the 60's. Claiming inside information doesn't help you, and FYI, unless you put your eyes on site and done an audit of it, you are simply guessing. The fact remains, you only need to apply enough water to keep the seed moist, not enough water to bring the soil to saturation at a 5 foot depth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hissing Cobra View Post
Around here in our pure sandy environment, you need a lot of moisture. I've been in this industy for the past 12 years in this area and I'm pretty confident that our soil's water holding capacity is pretty much non-existant.
I don't really care how long you have been in the industry. Recommending irrigation times that are in excess of ET, seeding or not, is simply irresponsible. Oh, and FYI, the reference value for plant available water holding capacity (AWC) for "pure sand" is 0.25 in/foot on the low end for a coarse sand, 1.0 in/ft on the high end for a fine sand.

If he is in a sandy soil on the cape, it is more likely he is sitting on a loamy sand or a sandy loam, but we will assume an unmodified Evesboro sand, which has a low end AWC of 0.48 in/foot and a high of 1.08 in/foot.

Again, taking the example of a system with a PR 1.5 in/hour and site ET of 0.12 in/day, how much have you over watered for all of these?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hissing Cobra View Post
Just because I didn't post a consideration for his soil type or growth pattern doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about. I think you underestimate where I live because I don't have my location listed as a state. Well, I live 20 minutes away from his town so I don't have to post about what's going on in his area as I already know this information.
HC .... anything short of auditing the site is guess work. You cannot even begin to make an informed recommendation on fertilizer without more information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hissing Cobra View Post
After dealing with turf for 12 straight years, I'm pretty confident in what I see, hear, and deal with on a daily basis to make a pretty good judgement call on things. I ask a lot of questions before giving out information. I'm licensed to apply these products in Massachusetts, I hold a commercial certification in tree/shrub with the state of Massachusetts, and I also hold a dealer's license in the state of Massachusetts. I used to have also have a license to apply in Rhode Island but I gave that up as I no longer work in that state.
Again, I don't really care how long you have doing this or what certs you have. It means nothing if the information you are providing is inaccurate or just plain wrong. The thing is, you didn't ask for any information here, and yet you posted a very specific management plan on a public forum that anyone in the world can read, and people that prefer to be spoon fed will likely follow, regardless of what area they are from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hissing Cobra View Post
Not really guessing when he's in my area and I know the conditions.
Sorry man, that doesn't cut it. I have sites that have widely variable weed pressure on the same site. Just because you are "in the area" doesn't mean squat. Didn't at least one of your cert classes inform you of this?

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Originally Posted by Hissing Cobra View Post
That's your opinion
Not my "opinion", it is fact. Feel free to verify that with any university of your choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hissing Cobra View Post
Whatever you say. You're over 3,000 miles away in another state and recommending things that work for your area - none of which are effective for our area. It sounds like you're the one who's guessing on most of this stuff.
I don't guess .... and FYI, I grew up in MA & NH. But heh, we don't have weeds, or grow turf, or have irrigation out on this coast.

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Originally Posted by Hissing Cobra View Post
Yes, I am a dealer for these products but that doesn't diminish my knowledge of what's going on.
And there it is. Guess it doesn't hurt to slip in some unpaid product promotion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hissing Cobra View Post
Being a vendor for products doesn't make me illiterate or diminish my capacity to help steer people in the right direction.
But that also doesn't stop you from recommending people use a product without knowing the extent of weed pressure on a site, if there even is any. You know that "why the hell not" application so I can sell more product kind of recommendation.
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  #33  
Old 05-04-2013, 02:33 PM
Hissing Cobra Hissing Cobra is offline
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Your turf picture looked good. Why do you have to reseed every year?
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  #34  
Old 05-04-2013, 04:24 PM
Hissing Cobra Hissing Cobra is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
And I can drive less than 5 minutes and have a completely different soil type. In fact, I have sites where I have completely different soil types on site. Further, can you point out where he said he was on the Cape?
I never said he was on the cape. I said he was nearby the cape. He's also right near the ocean, so guess what he's got for soil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
And yet you are recommending 15 minutes 3 times a day with temps in the 60's. Claiming inside information doesn't help you, and FYI, unless you put your eyes on site and done an audit of it, you are simply guessing. The fact remains, you only need to apply enough water to keep the seed moist, not enough water to bring the soil to saturation at a 5 foot depth.
I've done over 150 soil tests from customers over the past 5 years and guess what? None of them have come in with a clay type soil. They're all coming back as either sandy or a sandy loam. We haven't had any measurable rain in almost a month, if not more. Everything around here is bone dry. Hell, my own lawn is pure sandy soil and it's bone dry - and I've run my irrigation system 3 times in the past week. Five feet? Where did you get that number from?




Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
I don't really care how long you have been in the industry. Recommending irrigation times that are in excess of ET, seeding or not, is simply irresponsible. Oh, and FYI, the reference value for plant available water holding capacity (AWC) for "pure sand" is 0.25 in/foot on the low end for a coarse sand, 1.0 in/ft on the high end for a fine sand.

If he is in a sandy soil on the cape, it is more likely he is sitting on a loamy sand or a sandy loam, but we will assume an unmodified Evesboro sand, which has a low end AWC of 0.48 in/foot and a high of 1.08 in/foot.

Again, taking the example of a system with a PR 1.5 in/hour and site ET of 0.12 in/day, how much have you over watered for all of these?

HC .... anything short of auditing the site is guess work. You cannot even begin to make an informed recommendation on fertilizer without more information.
Irresponsible? Coming from the guy who's recommending a watering schedule of once per day for a sandy environment.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
Again, I don't really care how long you have doing this or what certs you have. It means nothing if the information you are providing is inaccurate or just plain wrong. The thing is, you didn't ask for any information here, and yet you posted a very specific management plan on a public forum that anyone in the world can read, and people that prefer to be spoon fed will likely follow, regardless of what area they are from.
I posted something that will work and has worked over and over for the past 7 years. I have tons of happy customers that have followed this plan or similar plans (I DO change them as there are different circumstances). Those who are from other areas that want to copy this are using their own risk. If they copy it and it works for their area that's great. If it doesn't work for their area the blame is not on me. I am not responsible for their choice.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
Sorry man, that doesn't cut it. I have sites that have widely variable weed pressure on the same site. Just because you are "in the area" doesn't mean squat. Didn't at least one of your cert classes inform you of this?
Obviously weed pressure varies, especially in the shady areas vs. the sunny areas. I think we all know that. I recommend for people to seed shady areas every spring and to keep Crabgrass pre-emergent controls out of those areas as they act as root pruners. A simple starter fertilizer is all that is needed for areas like that. If you're in a sunny area where crabgrass is more than likely to grow, I'll recommend Tupersan every day of the week as I know that it works.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
And there it is. Guess it doesn't hurt to slip in some unpaid product promotion. But that also doesn't stop you from recommending people use a product without knowing the extent of weed pressure on a site, if there even is any. You know that "why the hell not" application so I can sell more product kind of recommendation
You can say what you want. I don't come here to help people buy the products that my company sells. I come here to help them grow and maintain a lawn, and to prevent them from wasting money on mistakes they could have avoided. I don't post any answers, nor give any advice to people in California on how to grow/maintain a lawn because I know it's a different type of environment than what we have in New England, the growing seasons are different, the seeds to plant are different, and other variables that I don't know about. However, you can give your wisdom to someone on a different coast, 3,000 miles away and you're the one calling me irresponsible? Keep on recommending that TTF type seed to people in our area. The only ones you see that will buy it are people who have large, wide open fields that they cannont water on a regular basis. What may work for your area is obviously different than what is going on out here.
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  #35  
Old 05-04-2013, 04:42 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hissing Cobra View Post
I never said he was on the cape. I said he was nearby the cape. He's also right near the ocean, so guess what he's got for soil?
Give me a city.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hissing Cobra View Post
I've done over 150 soil tests from customers over the past 5 years and guess what? None of them have come in with a clay type soil. They're all coming back as either sandy or a sandy loam. We haven't had any measurable rain in almost a month, if not more. Everything around here is bone dry. Hell, my own lawn is pure sandy soil and it's bone dry - and I've run my irrigation system 3 times in the past week. Five feet? Where did you get that number from?
Answer the questions HC.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hissing Cobra View Post
Irresponsible? Coming from the guy who's recommending a watering schedule of once per day for a sandy environment.
Replied to OP ......
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
Depends on your soil, but unless you are sitting on pure sand, no.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hissing Cobra View Post
I posted something that will work and has worked over and over for the past 7 years. I have tons of happy customers that have followed this plan or similar plans (I DO change them as there are different circumstances). Those who are from other areas that want to copy this are using their own risk. If they copy it and it works for their area that's great. If it doesn't work for their area the blame is not on me. I am not responsible for their choice.
Good for you .... still doesn't mean you aren't over irrigating or over fertilizing .... but heh whatever dude.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hissing Cobra View Post
Obviously weed pressure varies, especially in the shady areas vs. the sunny areas. I think we all know that. I recommend for people to seed shady areas every spring and to keep Crabgrass pre-emergent controls out of those areas as they act as root pruners. A simple starter fertilizer is all that is needed for areas like that. If you're in a sunny area where crabgrass is more than likely to grow, I'll recommend Tupersan every day of the week as I know that it works.
How about this? Recommend pre-emergents when there is a history of weeds and/or weed seed input into the area. Is that so difficult or is it appropriate to just assume there will be weeds even in situations where there won't?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hissing Cobra View Post
You can say what you want. I don't come here to help people buy the products that my company sells. I come here to help them grow and maintain a lawn, and to prevent them from wasting money on mistakes they could have avoided. I don't post any answers, nor give any advice to people in California on how to grow/maintain a lawn because I know it's a different type of environment than what we have in New England, the growing seasons are different, the seeds to plant are different, and other variables that I don't know about. However, you can give your wisdom to someone on a different coast, 3,000 miles away and you're the one calling me irresponsible? Keep on recommending that TTF type seed to people in our area. The only ones you see that will buy it are people who have large, wide open fields that they cannont water on a regular basis. What may work for your area is obviously different than what is going on out here.
HC, why don't you go ahead and outline the differences in growing turf between the two locations, since you feel they differ dramatically. Please be specific. Anything short of that is smoke and mirrors.

Before you start, realize this. Nearly every USDA zone is represented in CA and soils vary across the entire spectrum.
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  #36  
Old 05-06-2013, 01:24 AM
DieselMDX DieselMDX is offline
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holy crap and I didnt even think this would even get any responses.


thanx again Pete!
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  #37  
Old 05-06-2013, 06:34 AM
Hissing Cobra Hissing Cobra is offline
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No problem!
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  #38  
Old 05-06-2013, 09:27 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Hey HC .... next time you talk to him, why not give him this?

http://extension.umass.edu/turf/site...dscape_bmp.pdf

You might want to read it too ... and this one as well.

http://www.seattle.gov/util/groups/p...2021255394.pdf
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  #39  
Old 05-06-2013, 11:50 AM
maynardGkeynes maynardGkeynes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
Hey HC .... next time you talk to him, why not give him this?

http://extension.umass.edu/turf/site...dscape_bmp.pdf

You might want to read it too ... and this one as well.

http://www.seattle.gov/util/groups/p...2021255394.pdf
Took a quick look at the 2nd one. Do they seem like maybe they want to blame the Lawn Care Industry instead of the big Ag guys? Now, I'm 100% for responsible use of chemicals etc by the LCOs, but overall, we are a small part of a big problem. I don't like the part about lower customer's expectations. That ain't the way to build a business!!!
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  #40  
Old 05-06-2013, 12:30 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maynardGkeynes View Post
Took a quick look at the 2nd one. Do they seem like maybe they want to blame the Lawn Care Industry instead of the big Ag guys? Now, I'm 100% for responsible use of chemicals etc by the LCOs, but overall, we are a small part of a big problem.
There is an estimated 163,812 km2 (± 35,850 km2) (40,478,827 acres) of turfgrass in the United states ( ref ) which makes it the single largest irrigated "crop" in the country, by a healthy margin. I would hardly call that insignificant ..... would you? Further ... we need food, we don't "need" turf.

As a contrast, in 2012 the estimated planted acreage of ALL principle crops (corn, sorghum, oats, barley, rye, winter wheat, Durum wheat, other spring wheat, rice, soybeans, peanuts, sunflower, cotton, dry edible beans, potatoes, canola, proso millet, and sugarbeets) for the united states is 326,318,000 acres. ( ref )

Quote:
Originally Posted by maynardGkeynes View Post
I don't like the part about lower customer's expectations. That ain't the way to build a business!!!
IMO, there is no good or justifiable reason to manage residential/commercial turf at the same level as sports turf.
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