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  #31  
Old 06-23-2013, 11:05 AM
leftyjoe leftyjoe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djagusch View Post
How is it Scag's fault?
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It isn't. It's the dealers.
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  #32  
Old 06-23-2013, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djagusch View Post
In 2011 they had a kawi 29dfi but not the kohler 29hp.

Their advertisement is correct for the model yr/engine options.

No decieving going on if you read/think about.

Since nobody sound like they know how they change the speed difference look at the parts diagram. In past years they use different pulley sizes to make the pumps spin different rpm's. My guess this is due to engine torque curves.

Its really straight forward if it is researched/thought out. The lit has always had this different speeds for engines. Back in 2002 they were rated 10 mph and only had 10cc pumps.
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I find this interesting, but still makes no sense, a Hustler Super Z was a 15 mph machine with a 25 hp Kawasaki, a 27 hp Kohler, a 28 efi Kohler, a 31 hp Kawasaki, or a 35 hp Kawasaki, no need to change anything on the machine due to different engines. There must be a better answer than, "my guess this is due to engine torque curves."
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  #33  
Old 06-23-2013, 12:36 PM
leftyjoe leftyjoe is offline
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Originally Posted by puppypaws View Post
I find this interesting, but still makes no sense, a Hustler Super Z was a 15 mph machine with a 25 hp Kawasaki, a 27 hp Kohler, a 28 efi Kohler, a 31 hp Kawasaki, or a 35 hp Kawasaki, no need to change anything on the machine due to different engines. There must be a better answer than, "my guess this is due to engine torque curves."
I don't get it either puppy. Maybe the rep can shed some light on it when I talk with him tommorow. I was dead set on getting a super z partly because of the ground speed but I also wanted the Velocity deck, So I thought well, I'll get the 12mph scag and would be more happy with the Velocity cut and compromise on the speed.
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  #34  
Old 06-23-2013, 12:46 PM
Ridin' Green Ridin' Green is offline
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For sure they use different wheel motors for the Cat diesel models. It's right on their site, and I know I've read it either on their site or in some of my past literature that they use different ones for the larger HP models than for the under 29 crowd, which BTW, includes the Kohler 29 EFI which is actually 24.9 hp.
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  #35  
Old 06-23-2013, 01:18 PM
leftyjoe leftyjoe is offline
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Originally Posted by Ridin' Green View Post
For sure they use different wheel motors for the Cat diesel models. It's right on their site, and I know I've read it either on their site or in some of my past literature that they use different ones for the larger HP models than for the under 29 crowd, which BTW, includes the Kohler 29 EFI which is actually 24.9 hp.
The Kaw is true rated at 26hp putting it under 29hp also. The power difference in the Kohler and Kaw is negligible. I don't get why they would'nt use the same motors and pumps. The 791dfi is 26hp 40.5tq. the ech749 is 25.3hp 38.7tq per website info.
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  #36  
Old 06-23-2013, 01:52 PM
Ridin' Green Ridin' Green is offline
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Originally Posted by leftyjoe View Post
The Kaw is true rated at 26hp putting it under 29hp also. The power difference in the Kohler and Kaw is negligible. I don't get why they would'nt use the same motors and pumps. The 791dfi is 26hp 40.5tq. the ech749 is 25.3hp 38.7tq per website info.

Your numbers for the Kawi are right, but the Kohler numbers are off. The HP I posted above was right, and was taken from their site for the 29 ech.

This is lifted right from the specs for the ECH749-

J1995 Power hp (kW) 3 24.9 (18.6)
J1995 Torque lbs ft (Nm) 3 37.9 (51.3)


Maybe they have determined that there's a specific cut off point powerwise at which their pumps and motors need to operate to be efficient and not over loaded.
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  #37  
Old 06-23-2013, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leftyjoe View Post
The Kaw is true rated at 26hp putting it under 29hp also. The power difference in the Kohler and Kaw is negligible. I don't get why they would'nt use the same motors and pumps. The 791dfi is 26hp 40.5tq. the ech749 is 25.3hp 38.7tq per website info.
I realize they've got some reason, and if it's like so many other things it may be money related. The mower and engine manufacturers made a ton of money selling everyone several hp more than they actually received for many years.

They are allowed 15% with the J1995 rating, which means they could list 29 hp and go as low as 24.65 actual hp. This is crazy, sell and tell people what they are actually getting, instead of masking the numbers.
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Last edited by puppypaws; 06-23-2013 at 03:02 PM.
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  #38  
Old 06-23-2013, 03:03 PM
Ridin' Green Ridin' Green is offline
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Originally Posted by Ridin' Green View Post
Your numbers for the Kawi are right, but the Kohler numbers are off. The HP I posted above was right, and was taken from their site for the 29 ech.

This is lifted right from the specs for the ECH749-

J1995 Power hp (kW) 3 24.9 (18.6)
J1995 Torque lbs ft (Nm) 3 37.9 (51.3)


Maybe they have determined that there's a specific cut off point powerwise at which their pumps and motors need to operate to be efficient and not over loaded.
I meant to say "need to operate without overloading the engine".
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  #39  
Old 06-23-2013, 03:35 PM
leftyjoe leftyjoe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridin' Green View Post
Your numbers for the Kawi are right, but the Kohler numbers are off. The HP I posted above was right, and was taken from their site for the 29 ech.

This is lifted right from the specs for the ECH749-

J1995 Power hp (kW) 3 24.9 (18.6)
J1995 Torque lbs ft (Nm) 3 37.9 (51.3)


Maybe they have determined that there's a specific cut off point powerwise at which their pumps and motors need to operate to be efficient and not over loaded.
My bad on hp #'s. You are correct.
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  #40  
Old 06-23-2013, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by leftyjoe View Post
My bad on hp #'s. You are correct.
You will notice they stayed just above the 15% less than labeled mark, I find that interesting as well...24.65 to 24.9...yep, just above, like .25 above.

Wonder why they would not just list it as a 25 efi, that is its closest usable hp? I guess it just sounds better from an advertisement standpoint to let the end user think he's getting 29, instead of a usable 25 hp. I was thinking that is what the class action lawsuit was won over, and the reason Kawasaki decided to advertise usable hp instead of non-usable. Interesting statement they make at the end as well while covering their butts..."Kohler Co. reserves the right to change product specifications, designs and standard equipment without notice and without incurring obligation." This is saying we can change whatever we like, whether it be for better or worse, and by this added statement it is deemed unnecessary by law to make the end user aware.

This sounds good when trying to cover all bases, but if Kawasaki can verify, why would Kohler not do the same?

QUOTE:

1 Max Power (hp) and Max Torque (lbs ft) specifications for Kohler general purpose engines are rated pursuant to Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) J1940 based on gross output testing performed according to SAE J1995 without the air cleaner and muffler. Actual engine power and torque are lower and affected by accessories (air cleaner, exhaust, charging, cooling, fuel pump, etc.), application, engine speed, ambient operating conditions (temperature, humidity and altitude) and other factors. This J1940 / J1995 rating provides consistent measurement to customers who may want to control the intake and exhaust features of the engine. For more information, contact Kohler Co. Engine Engineering Department. Kohler Co. reserves the right to change product specifications, designs and standard equipment without notice and without incurring obligation.
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