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  #11  
Old 09-22-2013, 08:41 AM
Stillwater Stillwater is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alldayrj View Post
Not to start a geo debate, but why don't they use it under blacktop driveways etc? It's laid on the same base material
Black top drives are not permeable, but that's not my fault its, assfault.... But is is used in interlayment.
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  #12  
Old 09-22-2013, 10:31 AM
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DVS Hardscaper DVS Hardscaper is offline
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The fabric costs about 10 to 11 cents per sq ft, including 6% sales tax. There is no reason NOT to use it.


This lady said to me "I did some research and it says fabric does not hold up. We plan to be in this house for a long time, so we don't need it"!

HAHA! not sure where she got that from. we've torn out 30 year old rr tie walls and the fabric has always been in great condition. Paver Pete is the one going around telling people fabric should not be used with retaining walls because he thinks it clogs. Perhaps she stumbled across something like that and interpreted it for a blanket statement.


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  #13  
Old 09-22-2013, 02:27 PM
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JimLewis JimLewis is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alldayrj View Post
Not to start a geo debate, but why don't they use it under blacktop driveways etc? It's laid on the same base material
Good question. I ask the same thing of concrete flatwork contractors - why they don't install it. IMO, if it keeps the aggregate from mixing with the clay or silt soil (and hence causing settling) then you would want to use it in all applications, whether it be pavers, stone patios & drives, concrete or asphalt.

I do know some concrete and asphalt contractors that do install it - at least in driveway applications. They often call it "driveway fabric". But I also know most do not install it. I think for two reasons. 1) They have just always done it that way, the guy they learned from always did it that way and they just figure the way they've done it has always worked so why change? 2) They don't really have organizations like the ICPI to set standards, certification training, etc. And if they do, none of them use it. Because I know several guys that do concrete and asphalt and not one of them belong to or have ever mentioned any organization. Whereas in our industry we do have a lot of organizations to provide training and set standard practices.

Long story short, DVS said it, it's so cheap. Why NOT use it? I've seen some pretty good evidence from the ICPI and from the certification training I got with Allan Block to believe that geotextile makes a big difference. That, plus anyone in this industry that I really respect (in this forum and out) uses it. So that tells me something too.

The problem is that by the time settling occurs, it's often 3-5 years later. By that time, most company's warranties have run out. So they don't really care if there is settling at that point. And the customer is just left holding the bag and paying for a new patio. But if we all installed it, the time frame for patios holding up would drastically improve. The public's impression of our industry and our product would be greatly improved.
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  #14  
Old 09-22-2013, 03:31 PM
Stillwater Stillwater is offline
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Bash me if you will but I do not recognize icpi as anything important. Just a large lobbying group that collects money....
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  #15  
Old 09-22-2013, 04:23 PM
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Junior M Junior M is offline
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I wish there was some type of organization for concrete.. It would make it much more professional. And maybe cut out some of these hacks..
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  #16  
Old 09-22-2013, 08:59 PM
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big daddy b big daddy b is offline
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I'm not entirely sold on using it to be honest. I've talked to a few buddies today that work for other companies around the area, none of them have ever even heard of using geo fabric under walkways or driveways. These are top notch paver foreman, years beyond me and they have never used it in any of their installations.
I can think of a few specific driveways I installed 8 years ago, using 18" of base material, no fabric, heavy clay digout, screeding with stone dust and to this day it looks as it did the day I installed it. Not a single settled brick. In the 8 years I've only pressure washed it and re-sanded it.
So I don't know. I'll probably never use fabric unless it's spec'd in a job we're doing.
I also hear some guys aren't using stone dust any longer and switching over to straight play/beach sand. I can't wrap my head around that one either.
I've been using stone dust for 12+ years now, not a single problem. Why all of a sudden stop using it.

Sorry to kind of hi-jack the thread DVS, I'm just curious I guess.
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  #17  
Old 09-22-2013, 09:00 PM
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JimLewis JimLewis is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillwater View Post
Bash me if you will but I do not recognize icpi as anything important. Just a large lobbying group that collects money....
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A lot of our competitors feel the same way. I love that. If you don't see the way they've raised the bar in our industry and the credibility they give you as a contractor, you're simply not paying attention. But I'm not going to hate you for that. It's a free country. You're free to be as educated or ignorant as you want to be. Doesn't effect me one bit.
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  #18  
Old 09-22-2013, 09:10 PM
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JimLewis JimLewis is offline
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To be fair, I should say that I felt the same way about the ICPI for years as well. But now that we're members, more involved now, and have had several of our workers go through certification training with them, my opinion of ICPI has greatly improved. It has really created better practices for our teams, helped me educate my customers more at sales time and given us yet another way to set us apart from the competition. I wouldn't say that ICPI membership or certification alone gets us jobs. But when you have that - plus another 5 things - that set you apart from the other companies that someone is getting a proposal from, it greatly increases your chances of getting the job.

But even aside from that, it has just helped us improve our installation practices.
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  #19  
Old 09-22-2013, 09:49 PM
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zedosix zedosix is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by big daddy b View Post
I also hear some guys aren't using stone dust any longer and switching over to straight play/beach sand. I can't wrap my head around that one either.
I've been using stone dust for 12+ years now, not a single problem. Why all of a sudden stop using it.

.
Stone dust holds water and doesn't drain properly. Breaks down into a fine dust which has very little bearing capacity, as compared to a coarse grain sand. Its easier to grade as well, and doesn't become soupy when its wet like stone dust does.
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  #20  
Old 09-22-2013, 10:17 PM
Stillwater Stillwater is offline
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Originally Posted by zedosix View Post
Stone dust holds water and doesn't drain properly. Breaks down into a fine dust which has very little bearing capacity, as compared to a coarse grain sand. Its easier to grade as well, and doesn't become soupy when its wet like stone dust does.
We use stone dust on historical restoration....
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