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  #21  
Old 09-22-2013, 10:46 PM
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zedosix zedosix is offline
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Originally Posted by Stillwater View Post
We use stone dust on historical restoration....
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Yup I'm sure you do. Its used quite commonly here as well. Its cheaper to purchase and easier to get a supply of it, so this is the main reason people use it.
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  #22  
Old 09-22-2013, 10:47 PM
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DVS Hardscaper DVS Hardscaper is online now
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Originally Posted by JimLewis View Post
A lot of our competitors feel the same way. I love that. If you don't see the way they've raised the bar in our industry and the credibility they give you as a contractor, you're simply not paying attention. But I'm not going to hate you for that. It's a free country. You're free to be as educated or ignorant as you want to be. Doesn't effect me one bit.
Well Jim, Old Buddy. With no disrespect, I think you're very caught up in business operations and you're not so well tuned in as you may think.

I used to be a VERY proud ICPI member. So proud that I once thought about becoming an instructor.

"Raising the bar"? To an extent I can agree with you on that.

"Credibility"? And that's where I have lost all respect for ICPI. As there IS NO CREDIBILITY. Certifying any contractor that can write a check is not raising any bars nor establishing credibility.

I see it all the time. Contractors that are ICPI certified, yet they have no clue what they're doing. And they do not even do the work within ICPI specifications.

I remember a certain Lawnsite member that recently thought polysand was a weed inhibitor I had to write a multi-paragragh post explaining that poly sand aint a weed inhibitor. See, the lawnsite member learned something. And it didn't cost a dime either.

With ICPI issuing certificates to any Tom Dick & Harry - all the credibility has gone down the drain.

With ICPI having contractors out there that are not even working within the scope of ICPI's specs - all their credibility has gone down the drain.

ICPI has taken some bad turns. And that's not just my opinion, so many good contractors can attest to this.

I let my certification lapse and I have no intentions of ever going back. With my portfolio of jobs, my approach to the sales presentation, and our references - I can price a job against an ICPI certified contractor and I can still land the contract.

"credibility"? Non-existant. ICPI needs to examine their selves in regards to credibility.

I believe there is more credibility and more bar raising at this here forum than ICPI could ever shake a stick to.
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  #23  
Old 09-22-2013, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by zedosix View Post
Stone dust holds water and doesn't drain properly. Breaks down into a fine dust which has very little bearing capacity, as compared to a coarse grain sand. Its easier to grade as well, and doesn't become soupy when its wet like stone dust does.
Zedo and I had this debate about 2-3 yrs ago. I even posted pictures to back up my points.

Compacted stone dust holds NO MORE water than compacted Crusher Run.

Crusher run contains DUST. A lot of DUST.

Crusher run DOES compact denser than stone dust, that's a fact.

But dust holding more water than crusher run - nope it surely does not.



.
__________________
"It's You vs. You"

"People Throw Rocks At Things That Shine"


My Equipment Brag List:

-1 CAT hat
-16 pairs of Hanes socks (the Heavy Duty model), many with holes.
-12 pairs of underwear, ranging from Joe Boxers to Jockey, many are in need of replacement. (no more photo requests please)
-hundreds of t-shirts. Some w/ grease stains, some torn & tattered.
-7 pairs of jeans, ranging from Levis to Polo to GAP. 1/2 of them have holes in 'em.
-1 belt
-1 pair of old worn out Nike shoes.
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  #24  
Old 09-23-2013, 05:41 AM
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zedosix zedosix is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DVS Hardscaper View Post
Zedo and I had this debate about 2-3 yrs ago. I even posted pictures to back up my points.

Compacted stone dust holds NO MORE water than compacted Crusher Run.

Crusher run contains DUST. A lot of DUST.

Crusher run DOES compact denser than stone dust, that's a fact.

But dust holding more water than crusher run - nope it surely does not.



.
??? Stone dust is the smallest of the remaining particles after the grinding process. It's mostly flour particle sized. It hold water significantly more than coarse grain sand. I'm talking about two completely different products.
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  #25  
Old 09-23-2013, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by zedosix View Post
??? Stone dust is the smallest of the remaining particles after the grinding process. It's mostly flour particle sized. It hold water significantly more than coarse grain sand. I'm talking about two completely different products.
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Maybe aggregates in Canada are different. Can't say for sure never been there.

Crusher run here has over 50% dust in it. We all know dust holds water. Like sand.

But compacted Crusher run does not drain any better than dust. It compacts better because of the larger aggregates. In the states, if we want drainage - we use clean 3/4".

How much water will the base get after pavers are in place and final grading is done??
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  #26  
Old 09-23-2013, 08:36 AM
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zedosix zedosix is offline
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Very little is going to seep through the pavement but it's the groundwater and the heavy clay that we have up here that tends to hold the water and not drain. Stone dust freezes and the saturated stone dust expands and throws the interlock out of whack, trust me I've seen it countless times and felt it when walking on it in the spring you get a spongy feeling under your feet.
You've never been up to Canada wow dude you don't know what you're missing.
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  #27  
Old 09-23-2013, 09:35 AM
Stillwater Stillwater is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zedosix View Post
Yup I'm sure you do. Its used quite commonly here as well. Its cheaper to purchase and easier to get a supply of it, so this is the main reason people use it.
Historical restorations involve useing materials of the time of original construction. So what good would icip and concrete sand be? Surely you know icpi and concrete pavers were not available in 1870. Could you please pass me the ground limestone. Put this in perspective, and remember what icpi is their is a lot more to hardscape than interlocking concrete pavers......
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  #28  
Old 09-23-2013, 10:55 AM
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zedosix zedosix is offline
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Originally Posted by Stillwater View Post
Historical restorations involve useing materials of the time of original construction. So what good would icip and concrete sand be? Surely you know icpi and concrete pavers were not available in 1870. Could you please pass me the ground limestone. Put this in perspective, and remember what icpi is their is a lot more to hardscape than interlocking concrete pavers......
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I'm not arguing with anyone on what product to use. Don't really care, other than I do know up here our limestone screenings are very powdery, doesn't take a scientist or icpi to tell me that it will hold water.
I really don't care much about icpi, I do agree that it is over used and most people who take this course still don't have a clue how to place pavers.
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  #29  
Old 09-24-2013, 07:12 PM
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jmkr02 jmkr02 is offline
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Here people many people use slag which has fines and also breaks down over time. Trapping the moisture causes the pavers to lift during freeze thaw cycles. Another reason for using a more corse material like sand would be to let things like the ice melt salts to pass through. The fines in dust and slag have a tendency trap the salt which reacts with the limestone in the pavers and rots them from the bottom up.
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  #30  
Old 09-24-2013, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by alldayrj View Post
Not to start a geo debate, but why don't they use it under blacktop driveways etc? It's laid on the same base material
I have seen the street crews here use it on some pretty big projects and also the paving companies for asphalt...but for the crews that don't i wonder if maybe they use compaction equip far more powerful than we use on patio's drives ect and just feel it may not necessary? don't know, just asking
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