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  #1  
Old 06-26-2014, 05:26 PM
getdown getdown is offline
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61"- kawi 25.5 hp or vanguard 36hp?

Vanguard is only $500 more. Would be much easier choice if there weren't such a hp difference because I know kawi understates power ratings and Briggs overstates...but that's a full 10 hp difference for $500. By the way this is on a snapper pro (owned by Briggs).
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  #2  
Old 06-26-2014, 05:36 PM
Ridin' Green Ridin' Green is offline
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Kawi does NOT understate HP numbers. They post the true numbers now days. Vanguard is still using the old system though. The BB Vanguard would be my first choice for only $500 more.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl G
I can also tell by looking back to see how they're hanging and often reach back and feel them to see how firm they are.
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Old 06-26-2014, 06:54 PM
getdown getdown is offline
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Cool. I just looked back at the price list and it's actually only 350 difference which makes the decision easier. So the 36 hp is probably, what, more like 32 hp? Something like that? Still more grab 5 extra hp for 350 bucks and I hear they are made by daihatsu
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  #4  
Old 06-26-2014, 06:58 PM
Nate'sLawnCare's Avatar
Nate'sLawnCare Nate'sLawnCare is offline
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I own the S200XT 61 inch with the 36 Vanguard and it is a great combo. Just be prepared for a higher fuel consumption with the 36 versus the 25.
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  #5  
Old 06-26-2014, 08:47 PM
Ridin' Green Ridin' Green is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by getdown View Post
Cool. I just looked back at the price list and it's actually only 350 difference which makes the decision easier. So the 36 hp is probably, what, more like 32 hp? Something like that? Still more grab 5 extra hp for 350 bucks and I hear they are made by daihatsu
I am thinking that the 36 is probably very close to 34 HP actual. I have been reading through some of Vanguards specs, and how they are rating these engines now. Even though they are still using the old system of J1940, they are also using some other specs to come up with their ratings to comply with the law after the lawsuit a few years back.

It will use more fuel than a 25, but then, being able to cut faster and not lugging the engine at all to do it, is more fuel efficient in many ways.
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Originally Posted by Darryl G
I can also tell by looking back to see how they're hanging and often reach back and feel them to see how firm they are.
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  #6  
Old 06-26-2014, 09:32 PM
dathorpe dathorpe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridin' Green View Post
I am thinking that the 36 is probably very close to 34 HP actual. I have been reading through some of Vanguards specs, and how they are rating these engines now. Even though they are still using the old system of J1940, they are also using some other specs to come up with their ratings to comply with the law after the lawsuit a few years back.

It will use more fuel than a 25, but then, being able to cut faster and not lugging the engine at all to do it, is more fuel efficient in many ways.
I realize these are two completely different machines but it feels like my 72" Cheetah with the 34 Kohler EFI has more azz than my 61" Turf Tiger with the 35 Vanguard. I think I checked the specs back in the winter and the Vanguard speced as more powerful. I swear it feels like you have to restrain the Cheetah.
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  #7  
Old 06-26-2014, 09:37 PM
dathorpe dathorpe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by getdown View Post
Vanguard is only $500 more. Would be much easier choice if there weren't such a hp difference because I know kawi understates power ratings and Briggs overstates...but that's a full 10 hp difference for $500. By the way this is on a snapper pro (owned by Briggs).
This is a no brainer. You should have already had that 36 hp Vanguard strapped down on the trailer in the time it took to post this question on lawnsite.
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  #8  
Old 06-26-2014, 11:21 PM
Ridin' Green Ridin' Green is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dathorpe View Post
I realize these are two completely different machines but it feels like my 72" Cheetah with the 34 Kohler EFI has more azz than my 61" Turf Tiger with the 35 Vanguard. I think I checked the specs back in the winter and the Vanguard speced as more powerful. I swear it feels like you have to restrain the Cheetah.
Here are the specs for the Kohler EFI 34. If you'll notice, they no longer even show the 34 at the top of the rating in the specs. it was there until recently though. The true HP under J1995 is at the bottom-
"
J1940 Power hp(kW) 1 ()
Displacement cu in (cc) 61 (999)
Bore in (mm) 3.5 (90)
Stroke in (mm) 3.1 (78.5)
Peak Torque lbs. ft (Nm) 50.9 (69)
Compression Ratio 8.8:1
Dry Weight lbs (kg) 127 (57)
Oil Capacity U.S. quarts (L) 2.1 (2)
Lubrication Full pressure w/full-flow filter
Dimensions L x W x H in 25.2 x 19 x 18.5
Backpressure Limit 2 40
J1995 Power hp (kW) 3 31.9 (23.8)
J1995 Rated Speed (RPM) 3600"

From Vanguard's sire for the 35 HS BB-


"ENGINE SPECIFICATIONS
Gross Horsepower* 35
Engine Displacement (cc) 993 cc (60.6 cu in)
Number of Cylinders Two
Engine Configuration Horizontal
Bore 3.37in (86mm)
Stroke 3.41in (87mm)
Compression Ratio 8.2:1
Ignition System Magnetron®
Lubrication System Full Pressure w/ Spin On Oil Filter
Carburetor Two Barrel Float Feed
Engine Cooling Air
Engine Fuel Gasoline or Gaseous
Governor Mechanical
PTO (Standard) 1-1/8" SAE Keyway
Cylinder Block Aluminum Alloy with Dura-Bore Cast Iron Sleeve
Crankshaft Ductile Iron
PTO Shaft Rotation Counterclockwise from PTO Side
Starter Industrial Grade Solenoid Shift Electric
EPA Compliant Engine Yes


Power Ratings: The gross power rating for individual gasoline engine models is labeled in accordance with SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) code J1940 Small Engine
Power & Torque Rating Procedure, and is rated in accordance with SAE J1995.
"

It appears that they label them using the old std of J1940, but they test them under the new J1995 to make sure they can actually make the power they are being labeled with and to avoid a future lawsuit. So, it looks like the 35 is about 3 HP more than the 34 EFI.

Do you believe the peppiness of the Kohler is due to the EFI more, or do you think it is a combo of the weights of the machines, and the hydros used for each?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl G
I can also tell by looking back to see how they're hanging and often reach back and feel them to see how firm they are.
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  #9  
Old 06-26-2014, 11:22 PM
Ridin' Green Ridin' Green is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dathorpe View Post
This is a no brainer. You should have already had that 36 hp Vanguard strapped down on the trailer in the time it took to post this question on lawnsite.
Agreed 100%.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl G
I can also tell by looking back to see how they're hanging and often reach back and feel them to see how firm they are.
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  #10  
Old 06-28-2014, 08:25 AM
dathorpe dathorpe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridin' Green View Post
Do you believe the peppiness of the Kohler is due to the EFI more, or do you think it is a combo of the weights of the machines, and the hydros used for each?
Hard to say. The weights are about the same. The Cheetah may weigh a bit more because it's a 72" plus it's carrying more fuel. The Cheetah definitely has more pep but I think that's just because of the different hydros and the way they're set up. The Kohler EFI on the Cheetah is a much smoother engine than the 35 Vanguard. The Kohler feels like new technology.

There's this one place we mow that is an excellent testing ground for mowers. It's about four acres of extremely fertile land - almost like a plush meadow. We mow it every 14 days so it's usually 10 - 14 inches tall at mowing and it's thick as hell. We cut it at four inches. I've mowed it with the 72" Cheetah 34 EFI Kohler and it just hums - doesn't sound or feel strained at all. Now, keep in mind, I'm doing maybe 6 mph. But same circumstances, the 35 Vanguard, 61" Turf Tiger, you can really hear a difference. It does sound stressed like it's really working and sucking the fuel down.

Like I said, they're two completely different machines set up completely different and I'm not a big engine research guy like you and your buddy puppy ;-) so I'm going on sound and feel here. The 34 EFI feels and sounds like I could pick up the pace in heavy grass while the 35 Vanguard feels and sounds like it's got all it can handle. Now, you and your good friend puppy (there it is again, ;-)) might have all kinds of pie charts, bar graphs, statistical writings, cited by the Federation Of Modern Day Mowing Institute to prove I'm full of it. ...But I'm just speaking from my personal experience.
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