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  #21  
Old 10-15-2013, 06:08 PM
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ed2hess ed2hess is offline
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Originally Posted by Turf Dawg View Post
yes sir

I really helps
So teaspoon of celsius and 5 ounces of oil in 5 gallon backpack? After 4 inches of rain this is what the KRBS looked like today. ?.this was area hit with msma at 1 ounce per gallon with sticker.
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  #22  
Old 10-15-2013, 07:25 PM
WeedManWeatherford WeedManWeatherford is offline
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Originally Posted by ed2hess View Post
So teaspoon of celsius and 5 ounces of oil in 5 gallon backpack? After 4 inches of rain this is what the KRBS looked like today. ?.this was area hit with msma at 1 ounce per gallon with sticker.
OK. I am a slow study so let me make sure I understand... The first treatment you made was with MSMA and sticker. How long ago was that? And you just recently hit the area with Celcius and MSO? The picture seems to show some significant damage. How long ago did you do this last treatment? I guess time will tell whether or not it comes back. And was the entire area KRBS or some Bermuda? I can't really tell in the picture.
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  #23  
Old 10-15-2013, 07:36 PM
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OK. I am a slow study so let me make sure I understand... The first treatment you made was with MSMA and sticker. How long ago was that? And you just recently hit the area with Celcius and MSO? The picture seems to show some significant damage. How long ago did you do this last treatment? I guess time will tell whether or not it comes back. And was the entire area KRBS or some Bermuda? I can't really tell in the picture.
The area was hit twice with msma one week apart three weeks ago. We had hot days and the kill looked good. Now after a 4 inch rain it is coming out so I will hit it with MSO/Celsius. The question is will I need it to be in 90F for any more kill with new stuff? There was little spots of bermuda and those were
not affected by msma. Based on how it looks today the area will be totally green in 3 weeks.
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  #24  
Old 10-16-2013, 12:25 AM
greendoctor greendoctor is offline
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Celsius will work as long as it is in the 80s. Low 70s or 60s becomes iffy. I know MSMA becomes useless below 80 on hard to kill southern weeds.
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  #25  
Old 10-16-2013, 01:26 AM
Skipster Skipster is online now
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Originally Posted by greendoctor View Post
Celsius will work as long as it is in the 80s. Low 70s or 60s becomes iffy. I know MSMA becomes useless below 80 on hard to kill southern weeds.
What makes you think that Celsius will effectively control KRBS?

Looking back at the literature, none of the active ingredients in Celsius, either separately or collectively, have had any impact beyond some minor growth regulation of any of the Bothriochloa, including KRBS. DO you have any experience controlling any Bothriochloa?

Research from Texas A&M showed that 3 applications of glyphosate was the most effective method of control (98% control at 100 DAT), but emergence from seed completely repopulated the area by 160DAT. 3 applications of MSMA gave 75% control at 28 DAT, then faded to 30% at 60 DAT, then 0 at 100 DAT. 3 applications of Celsius gave some stunting, but 0% control at all rating dates.

A clue that Celsius may not be effective for KRBS is that it is not listed on the label for control. KRBS is a HUGE issue in TX, not just for LCO and golf, but for forage, IVM, and invasive species control. If Celsius had even a hint of activity on KRBS, Bayer would put it on the label in the biggest letters it could print because that one single use in TX would dwarf most other uses for the product. The fact that KRBS isn't listed on the Celsius label is a big glaring sign that it doesn't control KRBS.

Remember why weed identification is important -- so you know what product to use. Throwing a product with no activity against a particular weed isn't going to help things.
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  #26  
Old 10-16-2013, 05:47 PM
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Here is what these big medias look like when they have KRBS but mowed. If those seed pods can just be suppressed in fall we would be okay. Round up doesn't do much other than make it look really really brown for a few months and then it is back out.
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  #27  
Old 10-16-2013, 07:11 PM
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Turf Dawg Turf Dawg is offline
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Originally Posted by Skipster View Post
What makes you think that Celsius will effectively control KRBS?

Looking back at the literature, none of the active ingredients in Celsius, either separately or collectively, have had any impact beyond some minor growth regulation of any of the Bothriochloa, including KRBS. DO you have any experience controlling any Bothriochloa?

Research from Texas A&M showed that 3 applications of glyphosate was the most effective method of control (98% control at 100 DAT), but emergence from seed completely repopulated the area by 160DAT. 3 applications of MSMA gave 75% control at 28 DAT, then faded to 30% at 60 DAT, then 0 at 100 DAT. 3 applications of Celsius gave some stunting, but 0% control at all rating dates.

A clue that Celsius may not be effective for KRBS is that it is not listed on the label for control. KRBS is a HUGE issue in TX, not just for LCO and golf, but for forage, IVM, and invasive species control. If Celsius had even a hint of activity on KRBS, Bayer would put it on the label in the biggest letters it could print because that one single use in TX would dwarf most other uses for the product. The fact that KRBS isn't listed on the Celsius label is a big glaring sign that it doesn't control KRBS.

Remember why weed identification is important -- so you know what product to use. Throwing a product with no activity against a particular weed isn't going to help things.
No one is saying that Celsius will kill this crap with one shot. Sorry Charlie, but I am not spraying Gly on a nice St Augustine lawn to get rid of anything. I would really like to know what pesticide was tested for KRBS that is safe for SA that is effective and labeled for residential turf. Since no one has been able answer that question then I personally will keep using Celsius/MSO chased by Image. Most of my cleints even like the fact that the Dallisgrass turns purple and does not send out the seed stalks for awhile.
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  #28  
Old 10-16-2013, 08:37 PM
WeedManWeatherford WeedManWeatherford is offline
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Just today I ran into a high end customer which I picked up from a competitor a couple months ago. He has about 6 or 7 clumps of KRBS coming up in what otherwise is a beautiful St Aug lawn. Neighbors on both sides have some significant weed pressure including much more KRBS. So I just discussed it with him and said I would like to kill the clumps as they will not get any better. I also advised that if I did burn a hole in his lawn with glyphosate, he would need to place a piece of sod in that area this coming spring to reduce chance of KRBS reinfestation. He is thinking about his options and that is the best we can do. I am willing to "burn a hole" now in the fall in hopes of getting a good kill than dealing with the ever expanding problem in a beautiful lawn. And I will sometimes "burn holes" earlier in the year as well if I believe we can get good fertility quickly and the homeowner does their part.

And the study referenced is a good one. With the prolific seeding of KRBS as well as Dallisgrass, it is difficult to maintain control past 60 or so days. I am going to review that study again, but if I am not mistaken, there was no desirable turfgrass surrounding the target weed? I may be mistaken but will look at that again.

And the extension agent here in Parker county recommends glyphosate as well on KRBS for what its worth. And he is a pretty sharp one among the many I have dealt with.

My2cents...
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  #29  
Old 10-17-2013, 10:38 AM
Skipster Skipster is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turf Dawg View Post
No one is saying that Celsius will kill this crap with one shot. Sorry Charlie, but I am not spraying Gly on a nice St Augustine lawn to get rid of anything. I would really like to know what pesticide was tested for KRBS that is safe for SA that is effective and labeled for residential turf. Since no one has been able answer that question then I personally will keep using Celsius/MSO chased by Image. Most of my cleints even like the fact that the Dallisgrass turns purple and does not send out the seed stalks for awhile.
When greendoctor said that "Celsius will work" within the context of this conversation about selectively removing KRBS from bermudagrass stands, I thought that he actually meant that Celsius would remove KRBS from bermudagrass. We all understand that perennial grass control usually takes multiple applications, so I thought that was a given. Thus, saying "Celsius will work" in the context of perennial grass control insinuates that it will control the perennial grassy weed with multiple applications.

Maybe your customers are happy with your applications that turn weedy grasses off-color for a few weeks and reduce seedhead production for a few weeks, but then come right back. My experience has been the opposite -- customers are happy until the weed grows back. For this reason, I like to control weeds, not just make them turn colors. If this means that I need to use a non-selective application, then seed or sod the area, that's what I'll do.

If you read the literature about KRBS control (or control of any Bothriochloa species), you'll see that non-selectives are the only options that give any actual control.

But, you're free to manage this issue any way you like.
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  #30  
Old 10-17-2013, 11:48 AM
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Turf Dawg Turf Dawg is offline
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Just because it is not on the label does not mean it will not work. I will admit that I have not tried Celsius/MSO and Image on areas as large as the medians Mr Hess has posted, but I have got rid of plenty that was along driveways and curbs.

Here is one that is for pastures that is not on the label.
http://www.whitneyconsultinggroup.co...erbicideupdate
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