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  #11  
Old 12-04-2013, 08:18 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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http://soils.missouri.edu/tutorial/page9.asp#b
"... When combined with soil texture, structure influences the distribution of soil solids and pore space (called the soil bulk density).

So, Bulk Density is determined by how those cinder block are stacked...

For good infiltration, percolation and drainage,,, we would like "High density" or "Low density", for the most pore space???(High bulk density would have 'fewer' pores and/or smaller pores,,, is my guess... )
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
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  #12  
Old 12-04-2013, 10:36 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
Evidently there is something I'm missing in these short paragraphs
Evidently there is as you have (again) copy and pasted cherry picked statements without demonstrating understand of the material, or in the difference (again) between platy soil structure and clay platelets and how it relates to your statements regarding hydrophobicity of soils.

Perhaps you can start by explaining how a platy soil structure, measured in millimeters, compares to a clay platelet measured in nanometers.

Oh, and some definitions for you since you would rather speculate on a public forum rather than just look them up.

https://www.soils.org/publications/soils-glossary

Colloid:
A particle, which may be a molecular aggregate, with a diameter of 0.1 to 0.001 ?m. Soil clays and soil organic matter are often called soil colloids because they have particle sizes that are within, or approach colloidal dimensions.

Aggregate:
A group of primary soil particles that cohere to each other more strongly than to other surrounding particles.
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  #13  
Old 12-04-2013, 10:55 AM
TCW TCW is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
Evidently there is as you have (again) copy and pasted cherry picked statements without demonstrating understand of the material, or in the difference (again) between platy soil structure and clay platelets and how it relates to your statements regarding hydrophobicity of soils.

Perhaps you can start by explaining how a platy soil structure, measured in millimeters, compares to a clay platelet measured in nanometers.

Oh, and some definitions for you since you would rather speculate on a public forum rather than just look them up.

https://www.soils.org/publications/soils-glossary

Colloid:
A particle, which may be a molecular aggregate, with a diameter of 0.1 to 0.001 ?m. Soil clays and soil organic matter are often called soil colloids because they have particle sizes that are within, or approach colloidal dimensions.

Aggregate:
A group of primary soil particles that cohere to each other more strongly than to other surrounding particles.
Thanks for the clarification, Kiril...I was mixing up my terms. My brain is mush right now because of finals!

I don't really think that a specific type of soil structure lends itself to better infiltration than another. It seems that chemical makeup, weathering, and other factors play a bigger role. Aquatrols is a company that specializes in surfactants, wetting agents, and other products that aid in herbicide and irrigation effectiveness and efficiency. They make a wetting agent that aids in infiltration when added to the soil...if the soil structure was the determining factor in infiltration, this product wouldn't work effectively. That's what makes me think it's the chemical makeup matters most.

Once again...it's finals week so bear with me if I'm way off base.
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  #14  
Old 12-04-2013, 10:58 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Some more education for those in need.

http://www.fao.org/docrep/S8684E/s8684e0a.htm

and an extension service doc since axe seems to like them.

http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/agricultur...inage-of-soils
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  #15  
Old 12-04-2013, 11:11 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Originally Posted by TCW View Post
Thanks for the clarification, Kiril...I was mixing up my terms. My brain is mush right now because of finals!

I don't really think that a specific type of soil structure lends itself to better infiltration than another. It seems that chemical makeup, weathering, and other factors play a bigger role. Aquatrols is a company that specializes in surfactants, wetting agents, and other products that aid in herbicide and irrigation effectiveness and efficiency. They make a wetting agent that aids in infiltration when added to the soil...if the soil structure was the determining factor in infiltration, this product wouldn't work effectively. That's what makes me think it's the chemical makeup matters most.

Once again...it's finals week so bear with me if I'm way off base.
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For your reference

http://www.biomedsearch.com/article/...214526699.html
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  #16  
Old 12-04-2013, 06:27 PM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TCW View Post
... I don't really think that a specific type of soil structure lends itself to better infiltration than another. It seems that chemical makeup, weathering, and other factors play a bigger role. ..
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Please Note the Definitions above:

A colloid is a molecular aggregate,,, that becomes a particle of a certain size,,, and of course, size has everything to do with solution...

Particles of a certain size will stir up into water and stay in solution(sugar, for example)... Colloids are particles that may stir up in water, but then precipitate out of solution once the stirring motion has stopped(clay soil particles,, for example)...

So we got the knowledge that Colloids are 'molecular' aggregates ,,, but from our perspective,, it is a particle!!! like a grain of salt... as a visual,,, we might think of the cinder blocks as being a molecular aggregate(colloid) and then think of peds as particle aggregate or colloid aggregate or cinder block aggregate...
If you are able to think in terms of building blocks,,, all we are talking about here is starting with smallest to largest... Don't overthink it...

NEXT:
The term aggregate is a loaded term,,, that from the common sense perspective,,, means group or buch,,, in our current day vernacular...
So, for soils a group of molecular aggregates that color="blue"] cohere,[/color] to one another to form larger aggregates allow more pore space for water to move...

Are we on the same page yet???
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
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  #17  
Old 12-04-2013, 07:00 PM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Originally Posted by americanlawn View Post
This is cool stuff. NW Iowa farm -- we sometimes found limestone rocks with fossil imprints from sea creatures. Iowa was actually under water millions of years ago.

TCW -- When I worked for ChemLawn in San Antonio, we had what you're saying. "Caliche" soil and limestone within an inch of so below the surface.

I never mow my lawn (ZTR) when the soil is moist/wet. I will wait -- even if I have to double cut it. Maybe it's the 'farmer' in me. I figure you guys are the same way. (thanks)
Sorry for the distraction, but I thought it necessary to let TCW know that apples and oranges are 2 different things...
I too stay away from driving on heavy soils when they are too wet, but also if they are frozen... We get to take a look at what happens to pathways that do get driven over headed to the back 40...

The basics of soil were a big part of our education system up here in Wisco... In High School we analyzed clays, sands, and loams,,, then we moved on to tilth and how to tell the difference between good tilth and poor tilth...
It really was pretty simple to understand...

Being in a predominately agriculture community,,, did you have Ag class or Hort. class??? Ever join the FFA???

In High School here,,, I was able to graduate with the credits I got from 'Agriculture' and 'Horticulture'...
Because they were interesting classes to me,,, they were the ones I didn't JUST pass with a D-...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
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  #18  
Old 12-04-2013, 07:24 PM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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When we build Freeways through Wisco it is important to allow for drainage through the winter when the ground may be frozen while the snow is melting, so we dig these deep ravines and fill them up with round, tumbled field stone...
These stone range from softball size to tennis ball size, in most cases...

Why would we NOT use flag stone to fill these ravines???

Becuz,,, Everyone knows that the physical properties are more important in this case, than the chemical properties...
Does that make sense at all???
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
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  #19  
Old 12-04-2013, 08:03 PM
TCW TCW is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
Sorry for the distraction, but I thought it necessary to let TCW know that apples and oranges are 2 different things...
Thanks for trying, Kiril already gave me some good info on where I went astray in my understanding. If I can steal your metaphor, your statements let me know nothing about apples or oranges, but informed me that grapefruits existed...your responses weren't relevant to anything that you quoted in my posts.

I think this is now the 3rd thread that you have tried to start a discussion about this topic, then condescendingly responded to any questions or statements by throwing vague, out of context information trying to "lead us to the bright light of your knowledge." Give it a rest. Many professionals on here enjoy the discussion and want to hear others opinions- and I'm the first to admit if I'm off base in my opinions, learning from others to further my knowledge. We don't appreciate when a know it all interjects just to hear himself speak, especially when it's poorly disguised as a Socratic teaching moment.
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  #20  
Old 12-04-2013, 09:28 PM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TCW View Post
Thanks for trying, Kiril already gave me some good info on where I went astray in my understanding. If I can steal your metaphor, your statements let me know nothing about apples or oranges, but informed me that grapefruits existed...your responses weren't relevant to anything that you quoted in my posts.

I think this is now the 3rd thread that you have tried to start a discussion about this topic, then condescendingly responded to any questions or statements by throwing vague, out of context information trying to "lead us to the bright light of your knowledge." Give it a rest. Many professionals on here enjoy the discussion and want to hear others opinions- and I'm the first to admit if I'm off base in my opinions, learning from others to further my knowledge. We don't appreciate when a know it all interjects just to hear himself speak, especially when it's poorly disguised as a Socratic teaching moment.
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One thing you are going to want to consider is that physical properties(Apples) are more relevant in infiltration, percolation and drainage than are chemical properties(oranges)...in fact,,, indispensable...

Good luck with your finals...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
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