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  #21  
Old 12-26-2013, 09:51 AM
Skipster Skipster is offline
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I'm not sure I agree. We've already seen ALS-inhibitor resistant weeds in the southeast (Revolver resistant Poa and about 15 weeds (including spurge) that are resistant to metsulfuron, the ai in Manor). There are more than 100 weeds resistant to the triazine class of herbicides (Atrazine and simazine resitant Poa, for example) and there have been loads of weeds reported as resistant to Trimec-type 3-way combinations (since they all have a similar MOA).

Its hard to say just where this resistance came from, if it was overuse from LCO or not. The latest research pins triazine resistance squarely on overuse in the LCO business, but I suppose the case could be made that these chemistries aren't solely used in LCO.

From the activity on this board, it seems like the general attitude in the LCO industry is that "resistance can be a problem, but its someone else's problem and I'm not changing my ways."
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  #22  
Old 12-26-2013, 11:05 AM
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rcreech rcreech is offline
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What weeds are resistant to growth regulators "3 way"?
I don't know of any on the Ag or turf side here in Oh.


Trizine resistance has been around for a long time. We don't use trizenes on the turf side her but use a lot on the Ag side.
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Last edited by rcreech; 12-26-2013 at 11:10 AM.
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  #23  
Old 12-27-2013, 10:04 AM
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clemsonturf clemsonturf is offline
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Skipster- resistance is built in the AG world, not Main Street.

Acres applied is the name of the game.

You cited it yourself in previous post about only 16% of lawns are even seeing herbicides.
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  #24  
Old 12-27-2013, 10:24 AM
Skipster Skipster is offline
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I'm just sayin' that I've seen opinions on both sides. A survey of lawns might lead one to think that resistance is unlikely. But, scientific research has determined that at least some resistance has come directly from LCO overuse.

Even though its hard to pinpoint all the sources of resistance, we can't deny that herbicide resistance (no matter how it started) makes things more difficult for us. If your customers happen to have some of the ALS resistant spurge, you can't kill it with the normal stuff you're used to using and you may lose the customer b/c you couldn't take care of their problem. Then, resistance has taken money out of your pocket, cost you word-of-mouth customers, and made your herbicide purchases more expensive.

This has a real impact on LCO and I think a lot of guys simply are hiding their heads in the sand.
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  #25  
Old 12-27-2013, 10:47 AM
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rcreech rcreech is offline
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Originally Posted by Skipster View Post
I'm just sayin' that I've seen opinions on both sides. A survey of lawns might lead one to think that resistance is unlikely. But, scientific research has determined that at least some resistance has come directly from LCO overuse.
.
Curious to where this research can be found.

As stated... Resistance is a problem on acres not 2000 k.

U can pull weeds or spot spray am expensive product on a lawn. When u have millions of acres with resistance u have a real problem!
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  #26  
Old 12-27-2013, 02:38 PM
Skipster Skipster is offline
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This research is cataloged with the Weed Science Society of America. Check out their annual meeting in Feb. It will be in Vancouver this year. You can learn a lot by attending these types of meetings.

Weeds don't know and don't care how large the area is to which you're applying. If you apply one herbicide to a property (only if you make a spot treatment to the same spot over and over) enough, you will select for a weed population that is resistant to your herbicide of choice.

This can impact LCOs because it changes the way we do business. The guys in the southeast are already seeing it. They've moved from a mostly atrazine and simazine program (that was VERY cheap) that controlled a problematic weed (annual bluegrass) very well to a program with Barricade + simazine or just Barricade alone (my Barricade is 3x the price of simazine), and now they are seeing some DNA resistance and moving toward Specticle (3x the price of Barricade, or 6x the price of simazine). But, you don't get the POST effect w/ Specticle, so you have to add another produce at 9x the price of simazine. Overuse of triazine herbicides has lead to a 600% increase in PRE cost and a 900% increase in POST cost.

Imagine if a produce that you use commonly was no longer effective due to resistance. It may not be a huge problem on one lawn, but when you treat 10,000 lawns, it gets to be a big problem. When you need to use a product several multiples more expensive on several hundred acres worth of treatment area, it gets to be a big deal.

You don't have to treat a large area to promote resistance. All you need is a few square inches.
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  #27  
Old 12-27-2013, 06:01 PM
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rcreech rcreech is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipster View Post
This research is cataloged with the Weed Science Society of America. Check out their annual meeting in Feb. It will be in Vancouver this year. You can learn a lot by attending these types of meetings.

Weeds don't know and don't care how large the area is to which you're applying. If you apply one herbicide to a property (only if you make a spot treatment to the same spot over and over) enough, you will select for a weed population that is resistant to your herbicide of choice.

This can impact LCOs because it changes the way we do business. The guys in the southeast are already seeing it. They've moved from a mostly atrazine and simazine program (that was VERY cheap) that controlled a problematic weed (annual bluegrass) very well to a program with Barricade + simazine or just Barricade alone (my Barricade is 3x the price of simazine), and now they are seeing some DNA resistance and moving toward Specticle (3x the price of Barricade, or 6x the price of simazine). But, you don't get the POST effect w/ Specticle, so you have to add another produce at 9x the price of simazine. Overuse of triazine herbicides has lead to a 600% increase in PRE cost and a 900% increase in POST cost.

Imagine if a produce that you use commonly was no longer effective due to resistance. It may not be a huge problem on one lawn, but when you treat 10,000 lawns, it gets to be a big problem. When you need to use a product several multiples more expensive on several hundred acres worth of treatment area, it gets to be a big deal.

You don't have to treat a large area to promote resistance. All you need is a few square inches.
Being "cataloged" in by theWeed Science Society of America is very broad. Where can I find data to support this?
What products are listed, where and how do they know LCO's caused resistance?

As far as lawns vs ag you totally missed my point.

My point was...if u have resistance n a small area or lawn it doesn't need to be managed by herbicides.
You can use mechanical practices such as pulling



You can't hand pull millions of acres.
That's my point
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  #28  
Old 12-27-2013, 06:45 PM
Skipster Skipster is offline
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You can search the WSSA archives to find all the info you're looking for. The cases of resistance that were traced to LCO use were in urban areas with no agriculture that used the products that LCOs were using.

I understand that you're saying that resistance is a smaller issue on a single lawn. However, it might be difficult for a LCO or a homeowner to hand pull 1000s of weed seedlings out of a single lawn. When you see heavy annual bluegrass infestations in resistant lawns, its very easy to see 1000s of weed seedlings at a time.

But, if we look at this on a broader scale, how many acres do you treat in a year? Just in one market, we treat just under 2500 acres of lawns (lawns average ~6500 sq ft each). It would be a huge hit to our business to hand pull weeds on 10,000+ lawns.

If you want to see how this can play out with insects, ask one of the guys in the Florida forum about bifenthrin-resistant chinch bugs and how they handled that problem. Bifenthrin was used morning, noon, and night on these lawns for many years and they noticed a gradual decline in effectiveness until it didn't seem to work very well at all anymore.

We have loads of examples about weed and insect resistance to their control measures. I find it interesting how LCOs think about this.
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  #29  
Old 12-27-2013, 11:59 PM
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rcreech rcreech is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipster View Post
You can search the WSSA archives to find all the info you're looking for. The cases of resistance that were traced to LCO use were in urban areas with no agriculture that used the products that LCOs were using.

I understand that you're saying that resistance is a smaller issue on a single lawn. However, it might be difficult for a LCO or a homeowner to hand pull 1000s of weed seedlings out of a single lawn. When you see heavy annual bluegrass infestations in resistant lawns, its very easy to see 1000s of weed seedlings at a time.

But, if we look at this on a broader scale, how many acres do you treat in a year? Just in one market, we treat just under 2500 acres of lawns (lawns average ~6500 sq ft each). It would be a huge hit to our business to hand pull weeds on 10,000+ lawns.

If you want to see how this can play out with insects, ask one of the guys in the Florida forum about bifenthrin-resistant chinch bugs and how they handled that problem. Bifenthrin was used morning, noon, and night on these lawns for many years and they noticed a gradual decline in effectiveness until it didn't seem to work very well at all anymore.

We have loads of examples about weed and insect resistance to their control measures. I find it interesting how LCOs think about this.
I can't find anything stating resistance starting with LCO'S. I have searched high and low. Can u please provide a link?

I am not saying there isn't resistance. I am more familiar with it on the ag side then u ever will be. We have resistance to many ai's and even starting to see resistance to gmo bt's but we have them beat again for a few more yrs with multiple stacked traits.

As far as resistance n turf in Ohio there r no resistant weeds that I am aware of or documented.

If u have resistant weeds n turf spend the extra money and switch ai's or go to non selective I guess.

I am not arguing resistance...I am arguing that they have proven resistance started with LCO.



Just asking you to provide data to support what u say so I can say I am wrong and move on.

Because no website and I even searched what u said and I still can't find it. Where do they say LCO's caused the begining of resistance with an ai on turf weeds?
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  #30  
Old 12-30-2013, 04:35 PM
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rcreech rcreech is offline
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Skipster,

Are you going to provide the information to support what you said about LCO's "causing" weed resistance?

Thanks,
RC
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