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  #21  
Old 03-20-2003, 07:44 PM
basic lawn basic lawn is offline
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Mechanism: maybe microorganism action?
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  #22  
Old 03-20-2003, 09:57 PM
timturf timturf is offline
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yes, microrganism break down uf, but how long to break down HWIN? 1 week? 1 month? 3 months? or how long
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  #23  
Old 03-21-2003, 09:08 PM
timturf timturf is offline
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Isn't somebody going to answer?
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  #24  
Old 03-21-2003, 09:29 PM
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TimTurf

You banned me I am not allowed to answer. Hey people we with never get to Chlorine If we can't get pasted Nitrogen. This Is a good thread and I am learning from it. With proper fertilization you have the plant battle 75% won. The other 25% is triming and pesticides. These are hard question and no one is an expert. So take chance and guess I did. I am sure Tim has forgot more about bent grass than I will ever know.
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  #25  
Old 03-21-2003, 11:42 PM
mark2 mark2 is offline
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A long time. Depends on the temp. warm soil temp. helps break down faster. It last as long as there's product left for the microbes to eat. I would have to say that a high cec would break it down faster as well. UF is the fastest way to make good top soil in the world!! What do you think of that. I can't remember all that stuff about the expensive ferts but that's about as good of answer as I can think of for now.
Now I read back to see If I had answered properly and I noticed you said "mechanism" I can't remember the slide shows that well but I think it has something to do with sugars and conversions?
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  #26  
Old 03-22-2003, 08:48 AM
timturf timturf is offline
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I was looking for how it breaks down.
answer is soil microorganism
Yes mark2, a long time and the key is soil temp.

Help, We need a better answer than a long time!

Now ric, does the cec play a role? My first impression would be to say no, but maybe, because a higher cec would indicate more om, would should indicate more microorganism. NOW RIC, don't answer how long it will take!
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  #27  
Old 03-22-2003, 08:56 AM
Russ Russ is offline
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Synthetic Organics?

Let's see. First let's put fert in 4 basic groups 1,synthetic inorganics 2,natural organics, 3,synthetic organics and 4, coated products. Now lets look at the most complex group #3 the synthetic organics and split it into 2 groups, water-soluble & water-insoluble. We use 2 types of water soluable synthetic organic nitrogen carriers, urea and calcium cyanamide. The water insoluble synthetic organic nitrogen group is primarily composed of ureaformaldehydes(UF) and methylene ureas(MU). These two carriers are react products of urea, and its availability to the plant is measured by 3 distinct fractions based on solubility. One fraction is known as cold water soluble nitrogen (CWSN) and is immediately available to the plant. The CWSN includes unreacted urea plus some methylene ureas of low molecular weight. The second faction, cold water-insoluble nitrogen(CWIN) is less soluble than CWSN, but can still be available to the plant throughout the typical growing season. This fraction is composed of larger or heavier(molecular weight) methylene ureas that have to be microbially hydrolyzed to smaller units before they can be used by the plant. The third component of these nitrogen carriers is labeled hotwater-insoluble nitrogen(HWIN). This fraction may take years to break down into plant usable form. These carriers have similar characteristics to the natural organics including, intermediate release rate, low foliar burn potential, long residual response & high cost per unite of N. In this category N release is dependent on the activity of soil nicroorganisms, soil temps., PH, and nutrient level. Below 50d N release can be quite slow. It is important to understand the amount of CWIN in the water-insoluble groups is using them for a early spring application. And then there is IBDU. At least that is what Tom Voigt at the U of Ill had to say bout it last year. Sorry--did I try to answer the question after the answer was given?
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  #28  
Old 03-22-2003, 02:19 PM
timturf timturf is offline
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Russ,
A great reply, and very informative to our members. Did this come off your head, or did you look up. Doesn't matter, a great reply!!

Calcium cyanamide, educate me!

I assume you mean below 50 degrees soil temperature the microorganism become inactive, and any win in uf is basically unavailable.

HWIN fraction in uf usually breaks down in 1 yr, but a very small amount can take years!

Tim
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  #29  
Old 03-22-2003, 02:34 PM
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Darn Tim this is getting heavy Maybe Sean Adams of Lawnsite needs to start a topic called Advanced Agronomy. Agronomy is the science of Cultivation of land. Now this covers a wide area of knowledge, every thing from plant physiology to chemistry of soil. Chemistry of Soil is in fact the hardest science there is because there are so many variables. No two-soil samples are the same.

Now my homework assignment is “does the cec play a role?” Sure is it does, but how and why is the question. Chemistry of soil deal with many variables, each of these variables affects the other. We have already established that ureaformaldehydes (UF) is broken down by Microbial activity. So how does CEC affect Microbes?

Biota (Soil Organisms) includes plants, animals and microbes. Biota produces organic materials that enhance the weathering process and this decomposition produces organic compounds that can blind to (or chelate) cations and anions. Increased organic material in the rhizosphere or SOM decreases pH and increases CEC. This is how microbial affects CEC not how CEC affects microbial.

Now an old professor of mine use to repeatly say, “Everything is everywhere and the environment selects” An example of his statement might be Brown patch fungus. Rhizoctonia solani is the microbe that causes brown patch. Rhizoctonia solani microbes are in soil worldwide. However until we add excessive N and temperature under 90 degrees and above 60 degrees does Rhizoctonia solani start to increase in population large enough to show effect on our turf. Therefore CEC holds the compounds that are used by microbes as food. However it is AEC that holds Nitrate (NO3) the plant useable form of nitrogen.
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  #30  
Old 03-22-2003, 02:41 PM
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FYI here is a copy & paste about soil However lets not get into it until we finish Fertilizer. I place it here only to give a little back ground for Fertilizer.


Soil is one of the most important factors in successful landscape. We use the soil triangle as a basic tool to understand soil. Sandy soil consists of large particles with large void spaces and water runs right through it. Clay soil has tiny particles with tiny void spaces and water is trapped by it. Loam or silt has medium sized particles with medium void spaces that both hold and drain water.


Silt allows plant root to both drink and breath. It is important to remember. The spaces between soil particles, is where roots grow. These spaces should be 50% by volume. Therefore after free drainage soil should be 50% solid particles 25% air filled void space and 25% water filled void space. The more we know about soil the better able we are to grow plants. Soil is the environment in which plants live. We do not water or fertilize our plants. We water and fertilize the environment in which they live. We must understand the relationship between all of these factors of soil. Volumes have been written about soil. I only offer a very condensed version.

The top 6 to 8 inches of the soil (rhizoshere) is where most landscape plants, from the mighty oak tree to a blade of grass, get their nutrition. The movement of air and water through this environment is important. Proper Drainage is as important as irrigation. Saturated soil does not allow air to get into the soil. Air is important to the roots of a plant as well as the beneficial aerobic microorganisms in the soil. Fertilizer, irrigation, drainage and Aeration help us manage this environment we call soil. This environment is complex and changing every minute. Spend the extra money for good topsoil on the final fill and grade if you are building a new house in Charlotte County. You will save that money many times over in water and fertilizer. Soil is one of the most important factors in successful landscape.

How do we judge soil? By looks, what color it is. By smell, aerobic soil has a sweet smell. Anaerobic soil has a sour or foul smell. And by feel, sandy soil will not clump in our hand or form a ball. Clay soil will clump in our hand but not break apart. Silt will clump in our hand and break apart easily. That’s Qualitative; measurement differs individual to individual (Quantitative denotes scientific measurement). We give those measurements a name and can put numbers to them. For example pH., which measures how acidic or alkaline the soil, is. In Coastal Charlotte Co. our soil is alkaline so the last thing we want to do is add lime. Instead we manage the soil chemically with acid forming fertilizers. Physical properties of soil are measured in terms like texture, structure, particle size distribution, particle shape, density, infiltration, percolation, hydraulic conductivity, and water potential etc.


Bulk density is the way we measure compaction. Compaction is why farmers plow their fields and core aeration is how we manage compaction on turf soils. Compaction of the soil closes the void spaces. Water, air, fertilizer, and roots need these void spaces for our plants to grow healthy. Chemical properties are measured in terms like cation & anion exchange, salinity, pH, redox potential, and volatilization etc. You don’t have to understand or know all of these term and reactions to have a nice yard, but the Farmer, golf course greens keeper and the nursery grower knows this science. It is this science that allows a few to feed the many.

Copyright 2001 (c) Ric All rights reserved
Copyright 2001 Global Infromation Concepts Inc All Rights Reserved
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"As Americans you have the right to be stupid." John Kerry

"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid.” John Wayne.
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