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Old 03-17-2014, 02:30 PM
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1idejim 1idejim is offline
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Target accuracy

Target accuracy is something I've mentioned before in my posts, mostly in conjunction with comparing depth triangulation with the 521 or pro6/700 locators. Depth triangulation measurements will be similar on either side of a null if one is on target.

Before I got my pro800, I verified target accuracy in this manner with the 521 and the TR-4110 multiple times on every locate. Over time it became second nature to trace - verify - trace - verify - trace. When I got my pro800 I continued to trace and verify only now I toggle between peak and null - null and peak for target accuracy comparison.

I tend to rely on my locators for more than just finding lost valves, I often use it for not only cable avoidance but cable acquisition. By knowing that I'm on target I can dig on to or along side my power or plumbing lines. This eliminates damage and lessens the potholing required to perform repairs or expansion of a project. I have a few recent pics that were taken for documentation.











We were able to easily locate the trunk line for this pool leak detection, eliminate unnecessary potholes and since the soils were saturated with water, install a drainage pipe to lower the water and hopefully repair the broken lines this week.
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Last edited by 1idejim; 03-17-2014 at 02:35 PM.
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Old 03-17-2014, 09:04 PM
koster_irrigation koster_irrigation is offline
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What were you locating/tracing? metallic wire in conduit for pool equip? How'd you coincide this with a pipe leak?

I'd like to sharpen my skills for depth with my 700, It's about the angle you hold the wand off the null correct?
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Old 03-17-2014, 09:44 PM
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1idejim 1idejim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koster_irrigation View Post
What were you locating/tracing? metallic wire in conduit for pool equip? How'd you coincide this with a pipe leak?
I was locating the power to the light. As I said the power generally is in the same trench to the pool. At the po the plumbing branches off. I'd already found the leaks a few weeks back. I need to repair them now.

Quote:
I'd like to sharpen my skills for depth with my 700, It's about the angle you hold the wand off the null correct?
same as with the 521, 45 degrees.
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Old 03-17-2014, 10:41 PM
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greenmonster304 greenmonster304 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koster_irrigation View Post
What were you locating/tracing? metallic wire in conduit for pool equip? How'd you coincide this with a pipe leak?

I'd like to sharpen my skills for depth with my 700, It's about the angle you hold the wand off the null correct?
to find the depth you find the center of the null, turn the reciver 180 degrees from the wire path (mark the path), angle the reciever 45 degrees with the receiver tip on the ground until the bubble is in the circle, then back away from the path (the tone should then sound) until you hear the null again and the distace between the end of the receiver and your mark should be the depth.
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Old 03-18-2014, 12:16 PM
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RhettMan RhettMan is offline
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i want to insert as a side question, not to distract from the OP:

I want to go ahead and call myself out as a noob hack here, as the following description will most likely prove that.

Some of my biggest fits come from trying to use my 521 to find open wire location WHEN the open is in the vicinity of an interferring audible transmission. For example, near an assumed A/C current, or near electrical meters mounted on the exterior of a structure.

I so far have been able to find them, but, those locates always seem to take TOO long for my liking, due to the subtle/gradual/non-distinct tone of my trace wire.
These locate jobs always seem to include by luck: an interfering tone transmission, a dog barking rabidly next door, and a loud Air condition unit.
If it weren't for headphones and reciever needle, I couldn't find them, no doubt about it.

Sorry so long winded,


Finally To my question,
Is there a way to somehow "silence/isolate" the interfering A/C current noise by somehow tuning/calibrating the 521 reciever-transmitter pair? In hopes of more easily hearing the trace wire's delicacy?

One day at the Part-Sto, I thought i overheard a irrigation veteran in our area saying something to his buddy about a easy tool for the purpose of open locates, BUT: 1.) Im too knuckleheaded to ask, 2) why in the heck would a competitor try to indirectly give me a tip? and 3.) I have been able to find all open wire targets so far* (*though embarrasingly time consuming during the above described environment)
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Old 03-18-2014, 04:41 PM
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1idejim 1idejim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RhettMan View Post
i want to insert as a side question, not to distract from the OP:

I want to go ahead and call myself out as a noob hack here, as the following description will most likely prove that.

Some of my biggest fits come from trying to use my 521 to find open wire location WHEN the open is in the vicinity of an interferring audible transmission. For example, near an assumed A/C current, or near electrical meters mounted on the exterior of a structure.

I so far have been able to find them, but, those locates always seem to take TOO long for my liking, due to the subtle/gradual/non-distinct tone of my trace wire.
These locate jobs always seem to include by luck: an interfering tone transmission, a dog barking rabidly next door, and a loud Air condition unit.
If it weren't for headphones and reciever needle, I couldn't find them, no doubt about it.

Sorry so long winded,


Finally To my question,
Is there a way to somehow "silence/isolate" the interfering A/C current noise by somehow tuning/calibrating the 521 reciever-transmitter pair? In hopes of more easily hearing the trace wire's delicacy?

One day at the Part-Sto, I thought i overheard a irrigation veteran in our area saying something to his buddy about a easy tool for the purpose of open locates, BUT: 1.) Im too knuckleheaded to ask, 2) why in the heck would a competitor try to indirectly give me a tip? and 3.) I have been able to find all open wire targets so far* (*though embarrasingly time consuming during the above described environment)
1)How long is too long?
2)Never assume.
3)Headphones are no better than external speakers. I seldom use headphones.
4)Yes on muting. No on tuning or calibrating. It's all about grounding. Proper connection. Power output. Volume.
5)Ground Fault Locators.

Above all Rhett, it's awareness. Before you get anywhere the controller you should be surveying the site for outside influences, buried parallel conductors, aerial influences, recent damages or utility markings.
At the controller you need to analyze the system correctly and thouroghly.

I've chased valves for a long time, I've gone through the steps and jumped through the hoops to gain the experience that I have. There are people on this forum that I hold in great regards toward their experience and abilities and I'll hope that they agree with me in saying that if given the choice between skill and luck, I'll take luck.
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Old 03-19-2014, 01:58 AM
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RhettMan RhettMan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1idejim View Post
1)How long is too long?
2)Never assume.
3)Headphones are no better than external speakers. I seldom use headphones.
4)Yes on muting. No on tuning or calibrating. It's all about grounding. Proper connection. Power output. Volume.
5)Ground Fault Locators.

Above all Rhett, it's awareness. Before you get anywhere the controller you should be surveying the site for outside influences, buried parallel conductors, aerial influences, recent damages or utility markings.
At the controller you need to analyze the system correctly and thouroghly.

I've chased valves for a long time, I've gone through the steps and jumped through the hoops to gain the experience that I have. There are people on this forum that I hold in great regards toward their experience and abilities and I'll hope that they agree with me in saying that if given the choice between skill and luck, I'll take luck.
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1) In those faint traces, long enough that I wish I hadnt listened to you: and instead had charged the locate by the hour. Wait, no?

3 & 4) confused me on muting, current volume?
If its all about grounding, how should one ground?

5) GFL's , what do you think about them?



10-4, i'll bring my witching sticks (btw, talk about upset the helper, whip those things out lol)


Mr. Jim, odd, for preferring that: yall old-timer's really suck at teaching luck.
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Old 03-19-2014, 03:16 AM
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mitchgo mitchgo is offline
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Jim taught me , I'm feelin lucky at every job!

1) At some point you need to consider what is a justifiable cost to the customer with your work involved. I would way rather admit defeat on something and suggest other options then continue an endless loop . I believe in almost any electrical situation if you don't have an idea of what needs to be done next within 30min -hour. After an hour if you can't explain to your self the next steps you should be doing with a realistic breakdown and understanding of what needs to be done instead of doing 'guess work' it might be time to consider other options. If you have the understanding that its going to take you 4 more hours to fix the situation then great... But if you spent 5 hours chasing a situation with no more understanding then at first start or everything youve randomly tried didn't work or is not the issue than thats not an effective manner of doing business.. Your wasting your time and the customers money.

How often do you have wire breaks near high utility areas? I visit over 1,000 existing systems a year and rarely come across this situation.

Are you asking any kind of questions? Why is there a wire break near a utility line? Has utility work been done recently? New lines/ repairs? Has any digging been done lately?
Are you observing the area at all? Any kind of obvious changes or recent digging?

3)
You must have the head phone only 521. The 521A has the speaker. My preference as well is the speaker and not headphones. Though the 521 still is awesome .


4) Grounding is very important. Typically the rod it came with is good enough. Mostly it's whatever its penetrating, If you arent getting a good ground you should try to end the ground wire to elsewhere . Sometimes 10-50-100' ground extension can be very beneficial to the locate. Having wet soils is helpful too.

5) GFL is almost needed for fiding wire breaks. Locators can get you close but a GFL can pinpoint it exactly. Having the right tool for the job.

And yes.. Luck.. Ambition has a lot to do with this. Dont Give up, but know when it's time to quit.
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Old 03-19-2014, 08:35 AM
txirrigation txirrigation is offline
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I have found, while teaching new techs, that new guys tend to crank up the power too much. When finding a wire break I like to use as little power as I can get away with.
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Old 03-19-2014, 11:55 AM
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1idejim 1idejim is offline
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You make your own luck Rhett.
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