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  #31  
Old 04-26-2014, 02:30 PM
greendoctor greendoctor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turf Dawg View Post
I must be a Uber DA because I puts me some MSO in about everything except Speedzone.

I likes me sum Peach ice cream.
What flavor you like Ted?

I bet we are both wrong to some
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Now I feel ghetto. Peanut butter and chocolate for me.
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  #32  
Old 04-26-2014, 02:40 PM
greendoctor greendoctor is offline
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Originally Posted by ted putnam View Post
Actually "LI 700" sounds more cool than "MSO". Maybe I should switch to it. Then, at least I'll sound much more cool when I am talking about surfactants.

I mean, who cares if it works, as long as it sounds cool, right?

Skip, I think you disagree with most people on here(especially greendoctor) in an effort to stand out from the crowd...no matter what. And, you're willing to make silly statements like the one above in order to do that...

I've been treating lawns for 23 yrs and never used MSO until 2 yrs ago when I saw that it was recommended for use with quinclorac. There was a significant difference in how well it worked vs. other surfactant so I tried it with other herbicides and the difference was big. I'm not sure whether its because it is a modified vegetable oil and the plants more readily absorb the material or what the reason is. The fact is, it works and it works better than any other surfactant I have used. Many herbicides cause temporary discoloration no matter what is used with them. There's no way to avoid that. Explain this to the customer on the front end and this should be non-issue. This is the real difference between a "professional" and a "rookie"
I never heard of it either until Revolver got approved for use on residential turf. MSO is a solvent. Meaning the AI can dissolve into the oil phase and then penetrate into plant tissues. This might be a bit much when dealing with new growth emerging from winter dormancy. However, in the South and Tropics, what if that growth has been there long enough to harden off? I get to spray weeds that might have been there for more than a year. Grassy weeds do not die on their own here, they become perennial. Neither do broadleaves. Water based surfactants will make the spray wet the leaf surfaces. Whether it penetrates that hardened off weed is negotiable. Side by side, there is a difference. Not in burn, but in control of the target species.
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  #33  
Old 04-26-2014, 02:44 PM
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Turf Dawg Turf Dawg is offline
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Originally Posted by greendoctor View Post
Now I feel ghetto. Peanut butter and chocolate for me.
Whew we Doc

You are going to need to take a trip to the Lone Star State this summer and go to the Texas stop sign (Dairy Queen) and get yourself a Reeses peanut butter cup Blizzard.

Oh, sorry that flavor maybe wrong. Better check with someone who knows more than us
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  #34  
Old 04-26-2014, 03:03 PM
greendoctor greendoctor is offline
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Mine is Ben and Jerry's. I doubt that flavor is wrong. Sounds about right to me.
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  #35  
Old 04-26-2014, 03:07 PM
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ted putnam ted putnam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turf Dawg View Post
I must be a Uber DA because I puts me some MSO in about everything except Speedzone.

I likes me sum Peach ice cream.
What flavor you like Ted?

I bet we are both wrong to some
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We have Peach orchards all over this county. I'm not too much on peach flavored ice cream but fresh peaches on vanilla ice cream is the "bomb" My favorite is Pralines'n cream though. I guess its a "southern" thing.

Sometimes you do things because they work for you and you like the end result even though others think its all wrong.
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  #36  
Old 04-26-2014, 03:32 PM
greendoctor greendoctor is offline
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Pralines and cream with dark chocolate shavings on it.
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  #37  
Old 04-26-2014, 05:16 PM
Skipster Skipster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ted putnam View Post
Actually "LI 700" sounds more cool than "MSO". Maybe I should switch to it. Then, at least I'll sound much more cool when I am talking about surfactants.

I mean, who cares if it works, as long as it sounds cool, right?

Skip, I think you disagree with most people on here(especially greendoctor) in an effort to stand out from the crowd...no matter what. And, you're willing to make silly statements like the one above in order to do that...

I've been treating lawns for 23 yrs and never used MSO until 2 yrs ago when I saw that it was recommended for use with quinclorac. There was a significant difference in how well it worked vs. other surfactant so I tried it with other herbicides and the difference was big. I'm not sure whether its because it is a modified vegetable oil and the plants more readily absorb the material or what the reason is. The fact is, it works and it works better than any other surfactant I have used. Many herbicides cause temporary discoloration no matter what is used with them. There's no way to avoid that. Explain this to the customer on the front end and this should be non-issue. This is the real difference between a "professional" and a "rookie"
I get a kick out of you guys who think that you're somehow outsmarting the product or the manufacturer recommendations. You mix a bit of some new surfactant recommended to you online by someone you've never met or by some chemical distributor salesman (who may have been selling toilets at the Home Depot the week before) and you think you've stumbled onto something that is super effective that no one else has tried before. The, you use it once and declare it the best thing since sliced bread based on your sample size of 1. Forgive me if I have a hard time understanding why someone would base his business decisions (that have impact on how you feed your family) on hearsay and a sample size of 1. That line of thinking is very similar to the line about rate, that if the recommended rate is good, more must be better.

Did you conduct controlled replicated experiments over several years and several different management schemes and weather patterns to determine if you actually were getting better control with MSO and that what you saw wasn't due to some other factor?

Perhaps you didn't know that before Certainty was brought to the T&O market, it was tested extensively. My contract research firm did a lot of the early work with this product and conducted the lab experiments in conjunction with several universities. Every single testing lab happened to see the same results with respect to surfactants: they all (several NIS products, MSO, COC, UAN, Amm Sulf, and several organosilicones) had the same droplet spread (measure of leaf wetting), the same penetration time, and the same amount of herbicide uptake into leaves, stems, and roots. It didn't matter which one you used -- none of them improved Certainty uptake, speed of symptomology, or activity over any other. But, MSO stood out as having the worst off-target effects. So, MSO won't harm the efficacy, but it won't make it any better. AND, it gives more opportunity to harm your desirable grass.

MSO has always been recommended for quinclorac products because MSO has specifically shown in research (field AND lab research) to improve uptake and efficacy. But, it doesn't do that for every herbicide. It certainly doesn't do it for sulfosulfuron.

I make the statements that I do so that someone reading this board knows at least some of the facts. I'm not disagreeing with green"doc" (what's his doctorate in, by the way?) just to say something different. I just don't want anyone to be lead astray by poor advice and untrue reasoning. I like to base my business decisions on confident and reliable evidence, not on hearsay and a sample size of 1.
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  #38  
Old 04-26-2014, 06:39 PM
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Turf Dawg Turf Dawg is offline
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I like what works best for me.

#msoandpeachicecream

I am a legend in my own mind too
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  #39  
Old 04-26-2014, 06:57 PM
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ted putnam ted putnam is offline
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[QUOTE=Skipster;5022084]I get a kick out of you guys who think that you're somehow outsmarting the product or the manufacturer recommendations. You mix a bit of some new surfactant recommended to you online by someone you've never met or by some chemical distributor salesman (who may have been selling toilets at the Home Depot the week before) and you think you've stumbled onto something that is super effective that no one else has tried before. The, you use it once and declare it the best thing since sliced bread based on your sample size of 1. Forgive me if I have a hard time understanding why someone would base his business decisions (that have impact on how you feed your family) on hearsay and a sample size of 1. That line of thinking is very similar to the line about rate, that if the recommended rate is good, more must be better.

Did you conduct controlled replicated experiments over several years and several different management schemes and weather patterns to determine if you actually were getting better control with MSO and that what you saw wasn't due to some other factor?

Perhaps you didn't know that before Certainty was brought to the T&O market, it was tested extensively. My contract research firm did a lot of the early work with this product and conducted the lab experiments in conjunction with several universities. Every single testing lab happened to see the same results with respect to surfactants: they all (several NIS products, MSO, COC, UAN, Amm Sulf, and several organosilicones) had the same droplet spread (measure of leaf wetting), the same penetration time, and the same amount of herbicide uptake into leaves, stems, and roots. It didn't matter which one you used -- none of them improved Certainty uptake, speed of symptomology, or activity over any other. But, MSO stood out as having the worst off-target effects. So, MSO won't harm the efficacy, but it won't make it any better. AND, it gives more opportunity to harm your desirable grass.

MSO has always been recommended for quinclorac products because MSO has specifically shown in research (field AND lab research) to improve uptake and efficacy. But, it doesn't do that for every herbicide. It certainly doesn't do it for sulfosulfuron.

I make the statements that I do so that someone reading this board knows at least some of the facts. I'm not disagreeing with green"doc" (what's his doctorate in, by the way?) just to say something different. I just don't want anyone to be lead astray by poor advice and untrue reasoning. I like to base my business decisions on confident and reliable evidence, not on hearsay and a sample size of 1.[/QUOTE


I've noticed that it really bugs you that you don't really know anything about Greendoctor and he has experience and gives some solid advice. It's actually kinda funny to watch you in action on here...It's blatantly obvious that its a source of irritation for you... FYI. That's what I get a kick out of...

Back on track...

There's no conspiracy here to try to outsmart the chemical companies so you can remove that from your list of "insecurities". There are a few of us who attempt to make our jobs a little easier doing things "outside the box". If it works for us we sometimes pass that info on. You yourself pointed out that the label ADVISES against using MSO because of turf discoloration. It didn't say you CAN'T use it. Newsflash... Metsulfuron and Halosulfuron cause discoloration to a degree also, even when using nonionic surfactant instead of MSO.

The difference between a rookie and a pro is that a pro lets his customers know there may be some temporary discoloration after spraying and a rookie doesn't know what to tell the customer(before or after spraying)...Other than that, you're making a mountain out of a mole hill and I have yet to figure out why other than the little problem you have that I discussed at the beginning of this post.

One other thing, I never "bet the farm" on a new product or what I see happen in just my lawn(I was watching the DuPont Imprellis fiasco). I have customers(hundreds) who don't have a problem with me trying things out before going "all out" with a new product or technique. And, I never come on here throwing out advice unless I've seen it work for me with my own 2 eyes...on much, much more than just 1 lawn.
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  #40  
Old 04-26-2014, 07:32 PM
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ted putnam ted putnam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turf Dawg View Post
I like what works best for me.

#msoandpeachicecream

I am a legend in my own mind too
Posted via Mobile Device


Bill, you're too much...LMAO
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