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Old 09-19-2003, 03:08 PM
Green in Idaho Green in Idaho is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Idaho
Posts: 833
"Both vinegar and 2,4D are acetic acid compounds."

And my .01 one cent is that while they may both be acetic acid compounds it is what the 2,4-D comes along with that prevents one from saying they are "the same".

While the bricks are similiar, the end product is different. Therefore the question misrepresenting the two products.

Further the question involves an assumption that less acid is needed by using 2,4-D instead of vinegar. It sounds reasonable but it is still an "assumption".

And the question involves a qualitative word "preferred". Preferred for what? Is it preferred by people adverse to chemicals? No.

As Hamons wrote What is the best? "Best" according to what? "Preferred" according to what? If less acetic acid is you only criterion, then let's go there.

If it is agreed less acid is better. Then the question is "is 2,4-d preferred for weed control?". I would say YES. 2,4-d is preferred for weed control it is probably more dependable and reliable than an equal amount acetic acid in a vinegar solution.

AND IF weed control is the ONLY thing you are seeking you got a winner!

HOWEVER, organic methods seek weed control while NOT compromising the overall environment.

What is the "best" treatment. The answer depends on what the customer defines best. Best for my dog's health, best for the soil, best for my pocketbook, best for the color of green grass, best for my well water supply, best for the horse eating the grass, or best for my LCO to look good to the neighbors.


Let's reword it to "Is 2,4-D the preferred product over vinegar for the overall benefit of the environment?"


While you might want a scientific study to confirm that, I would like to read a scientific study that says "2,4-D is preferred and less harmful to the environment than vinegar". I'm sure those will be right next to the "web pages saying DDT is not harmful".


It can be generalized that if you have an intruder in your house it would be better if the intruder was short and small, so you might be more likely to kick his as, right. IF you assume a smaller person is easier to overpower, wouldn't a short burglar be better than a big one. IF the answer is yes, then Gary Coleman would be less of a threat than Arnold S..


Unless of course Gary Coleman is packing a .357.
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Old 09-19-2003, 06:51 PM
dan deutekom's Avatar
dan deutekom dan deutekom is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Millbrook, Ontario
Posts: 424
Thankyou Hamons. I use every tool available to make the best lawn possible. It dosn't matter to me whether it be organic or synthetic. I won't go all organic just because it is the "in thing". I won't use nothing but synthetics because I am a "stubborn anti environmental bad guy". I will use the best solution for the situation. So far havn't seen the answer.
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Old 09-19-2003, 10:47 PM
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Hamons Hamons is offline
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Location: Overland Park, KS
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Sounds like we are on the same wavelength. Simply trying to provide the highest quality turf possible for our customers!

I generally agree with all the above posts on blanket insectide and fungicide treatment -- but haven't found the answer yet on herbicides.
Jeff Hamons
Hamons Custom Landscaping
Overland Park, KS

Kansas City Lawn Care and Landscaping

Kansas City Lawn Care and Landscaping Blog
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Old 09-20-2003, 12:05 AM
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ChickensDoo ChickensDoo is offline
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Location: Gateway to the West
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I am involved with a growing organic-BASED lawn care service. We are not 100% 'organic' in everything we apply, but have seen the research and have witnessed the results on the lawns we maintain.

Our annual turf program is based on pounds of organic matter applied per thousand, not nitrogen. The healthy soils we build allow us to use less nitrogen and provide healthier, thicker, and greener lawns than our competitors who use strictly synthetics.

We use manure based fertilizers, mostly poultry. Some are blended with synthetics to speed up greening, mainly so the customers see some immediate response until the organics started kicking in.

We spot apply commercially available herbicides as needed. Also apply pre-emergent applications in the spring. We strive to use products that have the lowest rates of active ingredient to minimize enviro-impact. Makes us sleep better at night.

People call us because they want nice lawns and minimal environmental impact. We provide great lawns over time as the organic matter levels increase in the soil. Less than 5% of our client base remains "100% Organic".

Fungicide treatments have become unneccessary on our lawns. In some areas, we still do grub preventive treatments, with the product of choice being Mach 2.

Bottom line to all this is what Hamons said. Organic matter plays a major part in providing customers with healthy, attractive lawns. When organics are incorporated into a practical IPM program, they don't really cost that much more - they save you money and headaches.....
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Old 09-20-2003, 12:11 AM
Green in Idaho Green in Idaho is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Idaho
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Is that poultry product from your own chickens or do you buy it from a poultry farm?
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