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Old 09-19-2003, 12:03 AM
Green in Idaho Green in Idaho is offline
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Banned Pesticides & Herbicides

How about this for more fun?

Let's start a thread listing all of the banned pesiticides and herbicides that were previously legal and widely used.

So to qualify it can be either

A) previously approved for regular use and is today not legal for consumers to use, or

B) previously approved for regular consumer use and now only licensed applicators can use it, or

C) previously approved and NO ONE can legally use it today.

Barrels of FUN!!!!

I'll start with DDT and agent orange.

Picture of DDT spraying.
Attached Images
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Old 09-19-2003, 01:10 AM
GroundKprs GroundKprs is offline
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What does this have to do with organics? I think this is the LawnSite Organic Lawn Care Forum, not the LawnSite Anti-Pesticide Soapbox.
North central Indiana
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Old 09-19-2003, 09:28 AM
Green in Idaho Green in Idaho is offline
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It has to do with the REASON for using organics.
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Old 09-19-2003, 10:15 AM
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Hometown Lawn Care Hometown Lawn Care is offline
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I know what Agent orange does, but what does ddt do?
Paul Rocco
Hometown Lawn Care
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Old 09-19-2003, 11:30 AM
Green in Idaho Green in Idaho is offline
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DDT was widely used for mosquito control (hence the photo). It was also well used for it's general pesticide qualities.

It is a good example of how some pesticides have HELPED us in some regards when we look at the short term. It was used in response to malaria and typhus.

It is also a good example of how "approval" does not always mean the product is safe for long-term use.

Here is a clip from an appropriate organiztion -The Peregrine Fund:

Orginally it was thought that DDT was a safe pesticide for killing insects. It was later learned that it does not readily break down. Instead, it accumulates in the environment and subsequently in the food chain, affecting many other species. For example, one study showed that birds eating fish had a DDT level that was 85,000 times higher than the DDT level in the lake water.

Extensive use of DDT began just after World War II. DDT caused peregrine falcons to lay thin-shelled eggs which were either crushed during incubation or simply did not hatch. The result was that Peregrine Falcon populations suffered dramatic declines. In 1970 the species was gone as a breeding bird from the entire eastern United States and had declined by 80 to 90 percent gone in the western United States. Arctic nesting Peregrine Falcons were also impacted and decreased by 50 percent

BTW the Peregrine Fund in based in Idaho. It does world-wide efforts to protect birds of prey-

I like eagles!
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Old 09-19-2003, 11:58 AM
Dchall_San_Antonio Dchall_San_Antonio is offline
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I'm inclined to agree with Jim. We're not here to debate organics versus synthetics. I'd rather stick to the idea that there are customers wanting to start or continue their organic programs and you guys are here to help. The reason(s) for going to an organic program are really immaterial once the decision is made. And it is not until the decision is made that you guys get involved.

I suppose you could influence whether to go organic but DDT should not be in the discussion - IMHO.
David Hall
San Antonio, TX
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Old 09-19-2003, 01:03 PM
Green in Idaho Green in Idaho is offline
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Originally posted by Dchall_San_Antonio
And it is not until the decision is made that you guys get involved.

I suppose you could influence whether to go organic - IMHO.
And how would one do that (influence a decision) without knowing the full background to the issue?

Someone who operates with organic methods is for sure going to have to explain WHY at some point.

Why don't you use Lindane any more?
Why can't I find Diazinon on the shelf any more?
Why can my husband use Dursban in his field but I can't use it on my lawn?

There is also the WHY NOT questions...

"Why not use X to control the ants instead?"
"You want me spend 20% more with you than with ChemLawn. Why NOT use ChemLawn?"

When people ask me why I avoid chemicals, I offer examples, like DDT. Then money no longer becomes an issue. I don't say, "Well they are both equal alternative and I know nothing about the history of the pesiticide industy so I guess you might as well flip a coin..."

For an organic-based operator, the competition IS synthetics. Any good salesman knows there are basics of selling one product over the competition. One has to be prepared for the staple questions, and one has to be able to compare their product vs. the alternative. If you were selling Tiger Woods over O.J. Simpson, what would YOU lead with?

Education of the customer and selling the benefits of organics over chemicals are essential to a SUCCESSFUL organic BUSINESS. And yes it is proper education, not rhetoric like "anti-pesticide soapbox" connotations.

David if you want to talk about being an order taker for lawn services, fine. "If they call you and ask for it, you will be ready. Good luck people!" But that is not going to help anyone increase sales. No sales= no biz, and two years later people will be saying, "I don't understand why organics doesn't sell to my customers."

Remember MOST people do not know about bans, and the details of pesticides just like Hometown they haven't heard of it. Organics will become more viable when the populus is informed and reminded of the status quo; more organic production will occure and lower costs will enter the market, and whala everyone will be happy!

As far as "debating", it is only a debate when there is an opponent (competitor). A simple list of banned chemicals is hardly a debate!
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Old 09-19-2003, 02:07 PM
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leadarrows leadarrows is offline
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Ok mostly I'm still in the listening mode here. I do have an opinion about this however. Simple...... Theres no such thing as being too informed. I for one appreciate Green in Idaho taking the time to contribute useful background info. IMHO. Theres to much bickering going on. If the info is acurate and informative I'm all for it.
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Old 09-19-2003, 03:20 PM
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dvmcmrhp52 dvmcmrhp52 is offline
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I agree with the not here to debate organics versus synthetics,That could get ugly.
However I do think it is a positive to be informed on why these things were regulated and what there long term effects are.
I think it helps with the discussion for people wanting to go organic.Not looking for a contest, but information is always good if it is presented properly.
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Old 09-19-2003, 03:46 PM
Dchall_San_Antonio Dchall_San_Antonio is offline
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If the information was the absolute truth, it might not be a problem. But the problem is that people can present AND interpret the information different ways and draw different conclusions from the same information. Of course that's what makes the world go round, but that is also the definition of bickering.

Should every one of us go out and read "Silent Spring" before we continue this? That book is the one about the bird's eggs being softened by birds eating insects covered with DDT which leads to crushed eggs. Ergo if you use DDT, you have no birds and the springtime is silent from the lack of birds singing.

I think there is room for order takers here - at least at this point. Green In Idaho is well beyond the experience level where most of the readers of this forum are at this point. Up until a few weeks ago, some of the readers have not even been able to take the orders, because when they heard the word "organic," they drew a complete and total blank. If there are any of those readers around anymore, they haven't been reading very closely. Judging by the numbers of readers on certain messages, I'm going to guess that there are between 50 and 70 of you who are actually now able to hold an excellent conversation (including an aggressive sales pitch) about organic fertilizer and possibly even a few who could talk about herbicide.

On the subject of insecticide, half the topic of this thread, I would say that there are no approved synthetic chemicals allowed in the organic control of turf or garden insects. This is in my program. I'm more relaxed about spot applications of selective herbicides, but not for insecticides. If any good ones come along, I'll let you know. But to my way of thinking, there are few acceptable substitutes for natural control and those few are by and large natural occurring substances that happen to work.

Instead of synthetic insecticides, organic gardeners rely on bats (which are difficult to attract to specific yards and they have horrible public relations ), birds (which people generally find ways to invite to the garden), predatory insects (which they can buy or simply not kill the ones they have), reptiles (lizards and geckoes), toads, beneficial nematodes, and bacteria and fungi and their natural "exudates" (which occur in relatively large amounts in healthy organic soil). There are also certain naturally occuring oils and diatomacious earth that kill insects, but I shy away from those because they are nonselective in nature. I do use them but try not to as a first line of defense where beneficial insects are likely to be. It depends on whether the insect in question may be carrying a human disease or just eating plant juices. Somewhere between ticks and aphids is a line. There are also safe, natural products/materials to use on the plants themselves which build the plant's immune system against damaging insects. I'm still working on the FAQ for insect control.

Let's see how this topic goes. If we can keep the opinions from clouding up the information, maybe it will work.
David Hall
San Antonio, TX
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