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  #21  
Old 03-12-2013, 02:09 PM
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phasthound phasthound is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipster View Post
When using CGM at rates high enough to suppress crabgrass populations, you are applying about 6# N/M. How does that compare to N needs and recommendations for cool season turf? Can you say 'over-fertilization'?

Milorganite (and other biosolids) contain high amounts of heavy metals that can be toxic to pets, fish, and people. I've seen so many dogs get sick, visit the vet, and die from eating Milorganite applications that I won't use it anymore. Most biosolids also contain phosphorus, which you can't apply in many states.
You just keep spreading misinformation which is a different form of crap.
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  #22  
Old 03-12-2013, 09:45 PM
lawncuttinfoo lawncuttinfoo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
The recommended rate is 20 lbs/1000 when used as a preemergent.
I always laugh when I hear this. When you correctly analyze the actual ISU data this is not the ideal rate.

A long time ago my wife complied all ISU's data for a college paper (not easy I might add, it's not centralized or even organized) and correctly plotted it. We used this info to determine our rates which work unbelievably great.
The best part was when she called and spoke with Nick who said, "wow that is really nice we should do that"


No I'm not saying Skip is right or even defending him, just a tangent.
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  #23  
Old 03-12-2013, 10:07 PM
Skipster Skipster is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
And we have yet another set of made up skip numbers. The recommended rate is 20 lbs/1000 when used as a preemergent. CGM is typically 9-10% N, which leaves us with N application rate of 1.8 - 2.0 lbs/1000, which is easily within any cool or warm season turf needs.

You obviously haven't read the research. Iowa State's research shows that 20# CGM/M to be no different from their untreated control plots in regards to crabgrass control. ISU's work has consistently shown that 60-80# CGM/M is needed to acheive 50% crbagrass control. At 10%N, you're looking at 6-8#N/M just to get 50% crabgrass control.

Read the research before you post.
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  #24  
Old 03-13-2013, 08:33 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipster View Post
You obviously haven't read the research. Iowa State's research shows that 20# CGM/M to be no different from their untreated control plots in regards to crabgrass control. ISU's work has consistently shown that 60-80# CGM/M is needed to acheive 50% crbagrass control. At 10%N, you're looking at 6-8#N/M just to get 50% crabgrass control.

Read the research before you post.
I try to stay away from these bickerings, but I had to insert a comment about ISU continuing to research with CGM when 60 pounds per k STILL only gives 50% control...
I never saw a gov't funded lost cause... as long as gov't money keeps being thrown at it, it's not lost ,,, it will live...

The CGM has never been anything other than propaganda and any lawn that requires Pre-M of any kind,,, after 3-5 years needs new management...
Aeration should no longer be required after 3-5 years of good management therefore there are no new seeds coming to the surface, and any seeds that will germinate in that soil layer has already germinated by then...

My comic relief is over now,,,so continue your bashing one another and I'll ignore the rest of this thread as usual...
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  #25  
Old 03-13-2013, 11:21 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lawncuttinfoo View Post
I always laugh when I hear this. When you correctly analyze the actual ISU data this is not the ideal rate.
The recommended rate is directly out of the papers published by Nick Christians.

Example: http://www.hort.iastate.edu/gluten/p...luten-meal.pdf
Rates will vary depending on crop and target weed. I generally recommend 20
lbs product per 1000 ft2.
This provides about 2 lbs of nitrogen per 1000 ft2. Some
crops that are grown in rows can be treated in bands in the row and weeds can
be tilled between rows. This makes it more economical to use in crop production.
Test the material at rates from 10lbs/1000 ft2 in 10 pound increments to as high
as 80 lbs/1000 ft2.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawncuttinfoo View Post
A long time ago my wife complied all ISU's data for a college paper (not easy I might add, it's not centralized or even organized) and correctly plotted it. We used this info to determine our rates which work unbelievably great.
He quite clearly states rates may vary, however the recommended rate is still 20 lbs/1000. Problem is, most people that use it don't understand how to use it effectively.
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  #26  
Old 03-13-2013, 11:41 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipster View Post
You obviously haven't read the research.
Clearly you are speaking about yourself again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipster View Post
Iowa State's research shows that 20# CGM/M to be no different from their untreated control plots in regards to crabgrass control. ISU's work has consistently shown that 60-80# CGM/M is needed to acheive 50% crbagrass control. At 10%N, you're looking at 6-8#N/M just to get 50% crabgrass control.
http://www.hort.iastate.edu/gluten/pdf/cornglut3.pdf

At 20.28 lbs/1000 (99 g/m^2) level of control was 58% in 1991.

Further from the same paper:
Although nearly complete control of crabgrass in Kentucky bluegrass turf is
possible with corn gluten meal, the application levels required are excessive. A level of
99 g m -2 (2 Ibs. N 1000 ft-2), which can provide 58% reduction in crabgrass
establishment, would be practical in the spring application and is the suggested
application level for crabgrass control with this material.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipster View Post
Read the research before you post.
Indeed you should.

Last edited by Kiril; 03-13-2013 at 11:46 AM.
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  #27  
Old 03-13-2013, 06:50 PM
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dKoester dKoester is online now
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This should go down in the hall of shame.
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  #28  
Old 03-13-2013, 10:21 PM
lawncuttinfoo lawncuttinfoo is offline
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Kiril, the first link you posted is not a peer reviewed research paper. It is an opinion on the results of that research. Additionally it was written someone selling an idea to companies who want an easy application rate, this can not be discounted.

The second link you posted is actual research, however it is old and does not plot EVERY study and compare it all.

Yes humanity would not get anywhere without standing on the shoulders of their forefathers, however it is sometimes necessary to doubt and reanalyze their findings ourselves. In this case with different and better results.
Translation, don't be lazy, plot it all out yourself and you will see what I mean.
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  #29  
Old 03-14-2013, 10:07 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lawncuttinfoo View Post
Kiril, the first link you posted is not a peer reviewed research paper. It is an opinion on the results of that research. Additionally it was written someone selling an idea to companies who want an easy application rate, this can not be discounted.
It is the opinion of the man credited for the discovery. If you have problem with his recommendation, then take it up with him. BTW, that 20 lb recommendation is seen in numerous publications by Christians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawncuttinfoo View Post
The second link you posted is actual research, however it is old and does not plot EVERY study and compare it all.
How many studies are there with respect to crabgrass control? Further, what relevance does one studies numbers have with another studies numbers? I'll help you with that ..... NONE. You can't just collect numbers from various studies and plot them against each other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawncuttinfoo View Post
Yes humanity would not get anywhere without standing on the shoulders of their forefathers, however it is sometimes necessary to doubt and reanalyze their findings ourselves. In this case with different and better results.
Translation, don't be lazy, plot it all out yourself and you will see what I mean.
What exactly are you getting at? I don't need to plot something to understand what the numbers are telling me. Beyond that, on several occasions I have posted an extensive list of links to papers and articles on the subject of CGM. I'll post them again in the event you missed them.


Studies/Articles On Corn Gluten As A Pre-emergent


PATENT: Updated patent

ISU: Greenhouse Screening of Corn Gluten Meal as a Natural Control Product for Broadleaf and Grass Weeds

ISU: Isolation and Identification of Root-Inhibiting Compounds from Corn. Gluten Hydrolysate

ISU: Making its way to the marketplace: A natural product for the control of annual weeds

ISU: Bioactivity of a Pentapeptide Isolated from Corn Gluten Hydrolysate on Lolium perenne L.

ISU: Herbicidal Activity of Hydrolyzed Corn Gluten Meal on Three Grass Species under Controlled Environments

ISU: The Use Of A Natural Product For The Control Of Annual Weeds In Turf

ISU: A natural product for the control of annual weeds (Note: more or less same as previous link)

ISU: The Use of Corn Gluten Meal As A Natural Preemergence Weed Control in Turf

ISU: How To Use Corn Gluten Meal

ISU: Cellular effects in perennial ryegrass (Lolium perenne L.) associated. with the root inhibiting compound alaninyl-alanine

UCD: Evaluation and Demonstration of Corn Gluten Meal as an Organic Herbicide

UWEX: Corn Gluten Meal: A Natural Pre-Emergence Herbicide


Studies/Articles On Natural Products & Methods For Weed Control


UWEX: Corn Gluten Meal and Other Natural Products for Weed Control in Turfgrass

UFL: Preliminary Evaluation Of Nonsynthetic Herbicides For Weed Management In Organic Orange Production

JA-CSSPA: Weed Suppression by Deleterious Rhizobacteria is Affected by Formulation and Soil Properties

JA-CS: Cultural Management of Weeds in Turfgrass: A Review

PATENT: Xanthomonas campestris isolates and methods of use
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  #30  
Old 04-16-2013, 09:27 AM
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goodgreen goodgreen is offline
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Find an Amsoil dealer near you and ask them for Aggrand Organic Lawn and Garden fertilizer. It's mixed in a sprayer backpack and does a wonderful job.
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