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  #21  
Old 02-14-2004, 10:41 PM
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GlorifiedLawnBoy GlorifiedLawnBoy is offline
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TimTurf,
The sugars are created by the plant through photosynthesis thats why we would cut down the sugar cane as kids and have natural candy treats. Thats where all sugars come from. Corn is sweet, Maples give us syrup, apples are sweet.
The correct microbes hold the nutrients for the plants and also maintain the proper PH. Lawns as they are are not a natural occurrence the total biological ecology is absent..The absent biology would provide the proper organic matter in the normal death and rebirth cycle of nature. A forest is a complete ecology with leaves falling, animals, living, eating, defecating and dying. We do not need to provide organic matter to a forest but we do to the limited ecology of a suburban lawn.
Excess organics ultimately break down returning to the humus - of course it may be that I am incorrect about this. It has been awhile since college ecology and I am just know studying about this new Soil FoodWeb idea.
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  #22  
Old 02-15-2004, 12:37 AM
timturf timturf is offline
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Glawnboy,

Bet it has been longer since I seen the inside of a college classroom!

"The sugars are created by the plant through photosynthesis" I'LL AGREE, but how do the sugars get into the soil for microbes?

"The correct microbes hold the nutrients for the plants and also maintain the proper PH" So why do we lime if microbes maintain the proper ph? No, the microbes don't hold the nutrients for the plant, but microbes enable the anions nutrients, ( n, c, p, s ) to be an available or usefull form!

"We do not need to provide organic matter to a forest but we do to the limited ecology of a suburban lawn" Depends in how the lawn was established, and how long it has existed? Arn't we getting om from recyle leaf tissue and the decomposind of dead roots?
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  #23  
Old 02-15-2004, 12:49 AM
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trying 2b organic trying 2b organic is offline
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excellent wonderful thread, i have learned a lot and ty to you both. glorified, after talking to tim turf i made changes to my organic program and i think it is better now. 2 of my programs are as follows
- spring app cgm
- spring app Milorganite
- early fall app, Natures Valley 8-3-3 (feather, bone, s. of pot)
- fall app of 8-3-3


my non- weed control organic prm (cheaper cause not cgm)
- early spring app Milorganite
- spring 8-3-3
- summer Milorganite
- early fall 8-3-3
- fall MIlorganite

A few more points - Milorganite is my cheapers organic fert. therefore i want to use as much as i can while making sure my prgm gets k. Milorganite is 6-2-0

I looked into doing an app of sulfate of potash. 0-0-50 and my supplier says it will burn. If not I need to know. We cant get the perfect ratios with organics so we do the best we can. 4 apps of Milorganite would be more profitably but would not be responsible and I can get closer to the ideal ratio with the above.

I was very excited about your methods of weed control since I have been testing and researching them for some time. REMEMBER good turf management is the best weed control and a thick healthy turf will crowd out most weeds.

Weed control methods in chem free turf
- hand pulling (price into prgm 15 mins per fert app) and/or
- c.g.m. pretty expensive but proven effective on many broad
- horticultural vinegar or fatty acid spray
- flame weeder

The flame weeder doesnt work in wet conditions and is dangerous in dry conditions i.e. it doesnt work. I tested it and since it is almost always wet here it was ineffective for me.

Vinegar and fatty acid sprays - To legally use for weed control I have to use the ones registered as pesticides. Eco Clear or Top Gun. I am using a weed stick to apply to the leaves of broadleaf in turf. Pretty good so far but havnt tested enough to know if I will sell it as part of my programs. The weed turned a terrible colour but didnt really dissapear , however the grass isnt growing here yet so maybe it will work better aesthetically during growing season. Right now fatty acid spray is on exempted list and they are adding hort vin to exempted so i can use both without a licence.

It is our job to obsess about weeds and we must but if the customer doesnt want to pay for hand weeding they accept a few weeds rather than use pesticides. there is a tolerance there that does not exist for those who could care less about possible negatives of trad chem pesticides. So, I would, with tremendous respect, suggest that you only need apply cgm in the spring and get some P and K by using a dif organic fert for the fall app. Also, since cgm is the most, by far, (partly cause of app rate) expensive, offer an alternative prgm without cgm and go with the overseed and notion that a good thick turf will go a long way to crowding out weeds. Also, suggested app rates for organics are for the birds generally. I talked to the good people at Milorganite about thier suggest app rate and they made it clear the rate is based on 3 apps per season and no mulch mowing. Well i do 4 or 5 apps and i mulch mow. So I apply at a rate somewhat less then it says on the bag. Which makes my price per app a little more reasonable also.

ty again for input i learn a lot from you guys esp glorified for your interp of soilfoodweb which mostly went over my head. plz critisize my prgm so i can continue to improve it (and pracitce defending it, the competition is calling with fake questions now that my ad is in the paper)
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Last edited by trying 2b organic; 02-15-2004 at 12:54 AM.
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  #24  
Old 02-15-2004, 10:36 AM
timturf timturf is offline
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2borganic,

What are the rates of material applied per 1000 for each application?
"- spring app cgm
- spring app Milorganite
- early fall app, Natures Valley 8-3-3 (feather, bone, s. of pot)
- fall app of 8-3-3


my non- weed control organic prm (cheaper cause not cgm)
- early spring app Milorganite
- spring 8-3-3
- summer Milorganite
- early fall 8-3-3
- fall MIlorganite"


"I looked into doing an app of sulfate of potash. 0-0-50 and my
supplier says it will burn. If not I need to know"

"- early fall app, Natures Valley 8-3-3 (feather, bone, s. of pot)"

All material applied improperly while burn, and sulphate of potash isn't considered a hot material! Ask your dealer to explain how it will burn, because I would like to know! Look up the salt index of milorganite (.7) , and sop is (.9). Ask him whate the salt index is on 8-3-3?

I would replace 8-3-3 with 6-2-0, since you proably don't need that much p, and apply sop late spring , or early summer or maybe both to increase k before stressfull summer. Fe also helps with stress, but milorganoite will deliver plenty!

Again, what are your rates, and try2borganic, what is the total n,p,k do you feel your turf needs per season!
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  #25  
Old 02-15-2004, 11:09 AM
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DUSTYCEDAR DUSTYCEDAR is offline
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i have applied 0-0-50 with no burn in all weather conditions
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  #26  
Old 02-15-2004, 11:11 AM
timturf timturf is offline
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G lawnboy and try 2b organic, check your pm
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Primarly work with cool season turf
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  #27  
Old 02-15-2004, 11:26 AM
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GlorifiedLawnBoy GlorifiedLawnBoy is offline
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Tim,
The latest research does indicate that the microbes do hold the nutrients for the plants and it is the microbes that exchange the nutrients directly to the plants roots. Well not all the nutrients but it is retained in a chain of different organisms or still locked away in organic matter until it is broken down by the microbes.
It may be that totally sterile soil (with out any microbial life) that contains the perfect balance of plant nutrients can not support any plant. I am saying that a plant that itself has had every living organism removed from all its surfaces placed into a sterile plot that only contains sterile water soil and the correct amounts of N-P-K Ca Mg...ect. would waste away not from starvation but because we cannot keep said location completely sterile.
Other microbial life will enter and most pathogenic life forms reproduce at an accelerated rate. The beneficial microbes take much longer to reproduced as they never compete with their environment and do not rely on mass numbers to survive as a species. The pathogenic life is constantly at war with its environment so they reproduce exponentially to assure species survival.
What this means is that the microbes that provide safety to the plants from disease and organisms that will consume plant tissue can not fill this sterile environment before the pathogenic lifeforms populate and destroy the plants.
It appears that the plants have evolved into a symbiotic relationship with the other microbial life for their continued existence. The plants secrete sugars through their roots when they need nutrients with the "Hope?" or Understanding that the microbes in the soil will take it. The microbes pass along converted nutrients to the plants while populating space that pathogenic life would otherwise occupy.
We try to grow grass in a bare spot before weeds that grow faster can take hold. Weeds populate by rapid reproduction and thousands of seeds versus the grasses mere hundred.
So by keeping those microbes happy and healthy letting them do their job of converting organics into the nutrients required by the grasses the grasses themselves benefit. Providing the nutrients ourselves to the plants at the expense of the beneficial microbes our using fungicides or pesticides we harm that supporting role of the microbes leading to poor growth because of disease or over feeding of plant tissues by unwanted organisms.
It also appears that the microbial life, through different processes, do maintain their environment at the correct PH level for there existence. Yes we can add to that environment also to cause ions to bind in ways to elevate or decrease PH levels but why should we if the microbes in a perfectly healthy ecology can do so for itself.( I may be wrong here in that the microbes need specific elements to do this and we should provide it to them as we provide the organics if they are lacking. Perhaps that is what we are doing when we add Limestone.)
It seems that we need to consider that the grasses themselves can not provide the total amounts of organics themselves or other nutrients. A forest does not rely on the leaves from the trees as its only source of organics. There are the tons of insects and animals that live and die there as well providing a majority of the organics. Our lawns are very limited in their ecology and we do keep out much that would normally populate a grass meadow. So I don't believe that grass clippings no matter how established a lawn is can support said lawn alone.
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  #28  
Old 02-15-2004, 11:44 AM
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GlorifiedLawnBoy GlorifiedLawnBoy is offline
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Trying 2B,
I too am trying to.
We use milorganite in our regular program with synthetics.
Our weed control methods for this NEW program we are creating we expect to be as follows.
Cut grass every week. Do not let weeds go to seed. Three people spend 15 minutes, no more, mechanically removing weeds or spraying with hort vinegar. At the same time we will spot seed areas with a mixture of compost, topdressing and seed which will be carried in large fanny packs.
When I say Flame I do not refer to an open flame thrower. We are interested in using a superheated element that contains a 1" spike on the end. This superheated element when placed in contact with the weed super-heats the cell walls of the proteins in the weed causing them to rupture catastrophically. The plant is then no longer able to convert nutrients or pass them along to the parent plant. The plant starves to death. Also we believe that any water in the weed will also rapidly boil rupturing cell walls in an expanding vapor of steam.
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  #29  
Old 02-15-2004, 12:14 PM
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DUSTYCEDAR DUSTYCEDAR is offline
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got any info on the super heater element
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  #30  
Old 02-15-2004, 12:39 PM
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GlorifiedLawnBoy GlorifiedLawnBoy is offline
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http://www.rittenhouse.ca/asp/Product.asp?PG=526

Here you go it is called the Infra-Weeder. We have never used one but intend to buy one to see if it works as advertized.
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