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  #21  
Old 12-02-2004, 06:48 PM
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Mikes Machines Mikes Machines is offline
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Joe I have been a mechanic for 27 years. About half that time has been in motorcycle repair. This is sort of common knowledge that I learned about many years ago. The first documentation of this that I saw in print was an engine failure analysis book by Yamaha. I have since seen similar documentation from Briggs, Stihl and several others. At least once a year every brand of motorcycle, lawn equipment etc has a product update school that is required to be a servicing dealer. At these schools that last anywhere from a day to a week new models are discussed and new features pointed out along with new maintenance procedures. The last portion of the classes are question and answer sessions. This is the most valuable part for me. Its very intriguing for me to get into the minds of the people that make the products we use. There are some very smart people in this world. As with anything knowledge is power.
Mike
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  #22  
Old 12-02-2004, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikes Machines
The last portion of the classes are question and answer sessions. This is the most valuable part for me. Its very intriguing for me to get into the minds of the people that make the products we use. There are some very smart people in this world. As with anything knowledge is power.
Mike
Now that's what I call taking it a step farther. Truly an asset to this site.
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  #23  
Old 12-03-2004, 06:10 AM
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Joe B J Joe B J is offline
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Piston seizures

I also noticed on amsoils site that they recommend mixing @ 50/1 for commercial use. That should tell you a lot.
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  #24  
Old 12-03-2004, 06:24 AM
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Husqvarna starting procedure
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  #25  
Old 12-03-2004, 08:59 AM
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Mikes Machines Mikes Machines is offline
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Joe as a service manager I have many customers that disagree with what I recommend. I am not a Nazi Hitler Mechanic. (no offense intended) You can run your equipment any way you like. What I do is recommend what Honda Kawasaki Yamaha and Suzuki teach us in these schools I mentioned earlier. When there is a question on why a particular engine failure occured they have the final say. In my time at the dealership a "4 corner" seizure warranty claim would be rejected and would be customer pay. There would be a chance that there would be some good will consideration contingent on educating the customer. The decision is made by the warranty/tech people at the respective manufacurer not by me. We always "pressure check" an engine before disassembly and yes an air leak will also cause seizure.

Oldtimer said "Cold Seizures are sometimes diagnosed as a lean oil mixture, especially on larger pro saws. It's hard to convince some people that they can't use their saws until they are thoroughly warmed up but after a piston assembly and cylinder they listen better."


On 2 stroke liquid cooled motorcycles we recommend letting the engine run until the cylinder is too hot to touch with your bare hand. Then you are ready for full throttle which is what motocross bikes are all about. Taken care of properly they will last a long time. Again I am not "TELLING" anybody they "HAVE" to do anything. Just passing on the advice that I have been given by the people that make the toys we play with.
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  #26  
Old 12-03-2004, 12:46 PM
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Joe B J Joe B J is offline
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do you know anyone that cuts trees, or grass with a motorcycle?
you are talking high performance engines operated at extremely harsh conditions. The subject at hand is chainsaws, and weedeaters.

The piston seizure you refer to can be caused by "VARIOUS" conditions.

As for passing along manufacturer info...I did just that for Husqvarna saws, and weedeaters...you gave motorcycle info. Theres a difference.
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  #27  
Old 12-03-2004, 04:11 PM
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Mikes Machines Mikes Machines is offline
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Joe, chain saws are very high output engines that spin every bit as fast as motocross bikes. They have big carburetors and several transfer ports just like motorcycles. Weed wackers don't spin quite as fast and aren't quite as high performance as the saws. The similarity is very close. You are correct, piston seizure can be caused by many things. A piston that has the square pattern, no damage on top, has the correct jetting, has the correct oil and fuel mixture, does not have any kind of air leak in the cases or intake manifold or at the crank seals, has the correct air filter, the correct spark plug would indicate a cold seizure. I know the article that you linked to here says other wise. It is a free country and you or anyone can believe or disbelieve anything they choose. If you or anybody wants to start their very expensive chain saw when its 20 degrees outside run it for 30 seconds then hold the throttle wide open and lean into the biggest log you can find for all your worth be my guest. As for me and any customer that asks I choose to let mine warm up a little bit. Joe these forums and the internet are a great place to exchange information. All to often these threads get drawn off topic and turn into downward spirals with people butting heads. I do not want to offend anyone nor will I tell anyone they don't know what they are talking about. If I have implied anything of the sort I apologize. As far as the warm up thing goes what is a couple minutes going to cost versus what no warm up could potentially cost? And the same goes for mixing oil which is where this thread started.
Mike
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  #28  
Old 12-04-2004, 06:26 AM
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Richard Martin Richard Martin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe B J
I also noticed on amsoils site that they recommend mixing @ 50/1 for commercial use. That should tell you a lot.
Now if you're going to use info from Amsoil's site at least tell the whole story...

Quote:

AMSOIL Pre-Mix, 100:1, Synthetic 2-Cycle Oil (ATC) is the ultimate small engine lubricant. It is recommended for API TC, JASO FC, and ISO-EGD applications including, but not limited to chain saws, mopeds, scooters, weed eaters, lawn mowers, leaf blowers, chop saws, go-carts, motorcycles, snowmobiles, and pumps. Mix with gasoline at 100:1 for normal service in air or liquid cooled applications. For “Severe Duty” applications such as racing and continuously operated industrial or commercial work motors, richer mix ratios of 50:1 to 80:1 are recommended. Not recommended for use in oil injection systems.

And in regards to Amsoil's new Saber 100:1 2 stroke oil...

Quote:

AMSOIL Saber 100:1 2-Cycle Oils are recommended for 100:1 mix ratios in normal service and 50:1 to 80:1 mix ratios in severe service applications such as commercial equipment operations and racing.

If you read up a bit here at Lawnsite you would find that the vast majority of users are mixing Amsoil at 80:1.
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  #29  
Old 12-04-2004, 05:00 PM
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Joe B J Joe B J is offline
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Mike, you are comparing 3/4 hp engines to 50/60 hp engines, operated under totally different conditions. A chainsaw will be operated at full throttle for a very short time compared to a motorcycle being WOT for several minutes at a time, IE...not as much heat generated.

Excessive ideling will cause oil 'load up' in the engine. repeated 'load ups' can cause excess carbon buildups and lead to premature engine failure.

I want to ask you a couple of questions.

Motorcycles aside...have you ever saw a 4 corner seizure on a weedeater, or chainsaw?

Husqvarna recommends a 30 second warmup...how are you qualified to overrule them?

When one buys an engine...do as the owners manual states. There are too many people that feel they must change something contrary to the manual. I guess its an ego thing.
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  #30  
Old 12-04-2004, 05:08 PM
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Joe B J Joe B J is offline
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Richard, the TWO amsoil products you posted are the SAME oil. They just started calling it Saber.

Amsoil two cycle oils...

"AMSOIL INTERCEPTOR Synthetic 2-Cycle Oil is recommended as an injector oil or at a 50:1 mix ratio in carbureted, electronic fuel injected (EFI) and direct fuel injected (DFI) snowmobiles, personal watercraft, motorcycles, ATVs and jet boats, including, but not limited to, those manufactured by Bombardier®, Yamaha®, Arctic Cat®, Polaris®, Kawasaki®, Suzuki® and Honda®
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DOMINATOR is recommended for use in high performance stock or modified two-cycle motors, including air or liquid cooled snowmobiles, personal watercraft, motorcycles (Moto X), ATVs, go-carts and outboard motors*. Good for use with coated or non-coated pistons, high-octane racing fuels and exhaust power valves. Compatible with most other two-cycle oils, however, mixing oils should be minimized.

Use at 50:1 pre-mix ratios (2.6 oz. Oil per U.S. gallon of gas) or as injection oil where JASO FC or API TC oils are specified. Not suitable for use with alcohol or nitro-methane fuels.

*Not suitable for long-term use in outboard motors as a TC-W3 type oil, although excellent as a race oil for short-term use where motors are periodically inspected.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

AMSOIL Saber 100:1 2-Cycle Oils are recommended for 100:1 mix ratios in normal service and 50:1 to 80:1 mix ratios in severe service applications such as commercial equipment operations and racing.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
HP Injector is recommended for use in all two-cycle outboard motors including, but not limited to, Mercury® EFI & Optimax®, Johnson® and Evinrude® FICHT® and E-TECtm, Yamaha® HPDI, Nissan® and Tohatsu® TLDI®, Suzuki®, Mariner® and Force®. Also recommended for use in all two-cycle personal watercraft and jet boats, as well as snowmobiles, motorcycles and ATVs.

Use as injection oil or as 50:1 pre-mix (2.6 oz. per U.S. gallon of gas) where NMMA TC-W3 or API TC oils are specified. Compatible with mineral and synthetic TC-W3 type two-cycle oils, however, mixing two-cycle oils should be minimized."

That is directly from their site. As you can see, "Saber" is the only one recommended at 100/1, and only at "normal" conditions. Who defines "normal"?
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