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  #21  
Old 02-20-2005, 11:23 PM
Dchall_San_Antonio Dchall_San_Antonio is offline
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Location: San Antonio, Texas
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I wish manure was banned as a legal material to spread. If not officially banned, at least ban it in the minds of the participants in this forum. The ONLY valid use for manure that I see is as an ingredient for compost. And after it is composted it must pass at least a smell test to see if it is still manure. Manure stinks and will kill your chances of gaining clientèle.

Here are some organic pesticides from the Green Light company.
1. Bioganic® Organic Insect Control Concentrate
2. Fire Ant Control with Conserve®
3. Cedarcide® Insect Repellent

Bioganic is a mix of three oils. It is non selective so I don't like it. Conserve (TM) is spinosad, a nerve agent, that kills insects and decomposes very easily. It is created by actinomycetes, a specialized bacterium that is also an indicator in finished compost. Cedarcide is ground up cedar chips from juniper trees in East Texas. I have no opinion on that one.

But I really like the beneficial nematodes under the name Guardian/Lawn Patrol at this website. These guys work on 250 different pests without hurting the beneficials. These things are raised on pest species as hosts and carry a disease that is very deadly to them. It is a good idea to spray these guys a month before you need them. I sprayed today for next summer's fleas. I used them last year and never had one flea on my dog. This is a first for me. I used to give my dogs the spot treatments and don't have to now. And for reference to adjust seasonality from my area to yours, it is early spring down here. Some trees are budded out and blooming, crickets are chirping, grass is starting to grow on the organic lawns, birds chirping, etc. - all that spring stuff is going on. Wild flowers are just around the corner.
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  #22  
Old 02-21-2005, 07:05 AM
timturf timturf is offline
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Location: central virgina, transition, plant hardy zone 7a, and heat index zone 7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dchall_San_Antonio
I wish manure was banned as a legal material to spread. If not officially banned, at least ban it in the minds of the participants in this forum. The ONLY valid use for manure that I see is as an ingredient for compost. And after it is composted it must pass at least a smell test to see if it is still manure. Manure stinks and will kill your chances of gaining clientèle.

Here are some organic pesticides from the Green Light company.
1. Bioganic® Organic Insect Control Concentrate
2. Fire Ant Control with Conserve®
3. Cedarcide® Insect Repellent

Bioganic is a mix of three oils. It is non selective so I don't like it. Conserve (TM) is spinosad, a nerve agent, that kills insects and decomposes very easily. It is created by actinomycetes, a specialized bacterium that is also an indicator in finished compost. Cedarcide is ground up cedar chips from juniper trees in East Texas. I have no opinion on that one.

But I really like the beneficial nematodes under the name Guardian/Lawn Patrol at this website. These guys work on 250 different pests without hurting the beneficials. These things are raised on pest species as hosts and carry a disease that is very deadly to them. It is a good idea to spray these guys a month before you need them. I sprayed today for next summer's fleas. I used them last year and never had one flea on my dog. This is a first for me. I used to give my dogs the spot treatments and don't have to now. And for reference to adjust seasonality from my area to yours, it is early spring down here. Some trees are budded out and blooming, crickets are chirping, grass is starting to grow on the organic lawns, birds chirping, etc. - all that spring stuff is going on. Wild flowers are just around the corner.
David,
How do you know that those lawns where fert with organic's?
Lawns will green up earlier if fert with certain sythetic fert, that don't require as much microbes to make nitrogen available to plant! Ex. amm. sulfate (yea, high salt index)
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Timothy J Murphy Specializing in Quality Turf
Bs in Plant and Soil Science
Almost 40 yrs exp., 20 as GC superintendent
Primarly work with cool season turf
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  #23  
Old 02-21-2005, 09:31 AM
NAT NAT is offline
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Location: Zone 7
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I can say David that the neemoil is good from greenlight,works good on mites and some fungal plant problems. I want to find corn gluten/organic fert combo for spring .If you know of any in tidewater va Tim let me know.I really ready for somthing new, the barr,dem,prem in the last few years havn't been to great with the amount of rain.The chesepeke bay in my area have dead rivers from the amount of nitrogen run off from farms and companys like chlawn and other landscapers with quick release ferts.bridge products are better than norm products and practicing IPM is the way to go.
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  #24  
Old 02-21-2005, 01:28 PM
timturf timturf is offline
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Location: central virgina, transition, plant hardy zone 7a, and heat index zone 7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NAT
I can say David that the neemoil is good from greenlight,works good on mites and some fungal plant problems. I want to find corn gluten/organic fert combo for spring .If you know of any in tidewater va Tim let me know.I really ready for somthing new, the barr,dem,prem in the last few years havn't been to great with the amount of rain.The chesepeke bay in my area have dead rivers from the amount of nitrogen run off from farms and companys like chlawn and other landscapers with quick release ferts.bridge products are better than norm products and practicing IPM is the way to go.
Corn gluten, does a poor job on crab, and supplies too much nitrogen for cool season turf in the spring!

Many studies done on run off pollution on turfgrass, results are very little, the problem with the bay is farmers, raw sewge dumping into streams, (bad in DC), and poor sewage plants, many on the bay need upgrades
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Almost 40 yrs exp., 20 as GC superintendent
Primarly work with cool season turf
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  #25  
Old 02-23-2005, 06:29 AM
NAT NAT is offline
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I wanted to use something a little different this year ,corn-gluten has some good results .Its bad here ! I work around allot wetland areas and sandy soils and it depletes very fast and thats why slow release works so well and the blanket weed feeds wash away. I work in hoa and clean the ponds which full of excessive trash weeds and then go straight to the bay.What are you using this year for a prem tim?
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  #26  
Old 05-28-2005, 09:28 AM
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green_mark green_mark is offline
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Saint Paul MN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GroundKprs
This topic was brought up in another thread, and should really have a heading all its own. In a discussion of what pesticides can be used without regulation, both in the formulation and use of such products, muddstopper introduced the FIFRA 25b list at: http://www.epa.gov/oppbppd1/biopesti...s/25b_list.htm. This is a list of products that the EPA has exempted from requiring registration to sell as pesticides.

So the EPA allows these to be produced as pesticides, with minimal regulation on how the products can be labeled.

But then comes the question: Can you use these products in the sale of a lawn care program? The answer, of course, depends on your own state pesticide regulatory authority. Besides obtaining an EPA registration number or exemption, pesticides must be approved by each state for use within their borders. In addition, each state regulates the commercial applicators of pesticides.

In Indiana, the state regulator is the Office of the Indiana State Chemist, OISC. This is the take on 25b:
3) Do State governments regulate these exempted pesticide products?
Yes, Indiana and many other states continue to regulate these products. The FIFRA section 25(b) exemption is for Federal registration only. (emphasis was used on the department notice).

I searched the Indiana pesticide database (14,050 products) for the first 5 on the 25b list. The only one registered in IN was citronella, and of the 23 products, only 4 did not have EPA numbers. They are used for repelling insects, and are general merchandise, not items marketed to commercial applicators.

Also of concern, what does your state regulatory office say on use of unregistered products by commercial applicators? Remember, states regulate people using pesticides, not just registered pesticides. An operator using boiling water to control fire ants was fined and put out of business; the water was being used as a pesticide, and he was not licensed to apply pesticides.

It just appears that 25b is a recourse to allow product to be available to fringe organics enthusiasts. And these products are marketed for personal use, not for commercial use. Where is the commercial direction that is supposed to be the basis of this forum?

So, again, I learn a lot, but I learn nothing to help me sell an organic lawn care program. Can someone please reveal what organic pesticides he uses legally in his organic lawn care program? Please forget CGM, because use of CGM at the recommended dosage is culturally abominable in my cool season turf area.
Your grasp of this subject matter is tremendous! I have been fighting this battle with the EPA for years.

After butting heads for many years we ended up in a Federal Court. In my opinion they used the FIFRA Act sec (25b) as a bait to find small companies with potential and then destroy them. I was right.

It was not their desire to end up in a Federal Court. I was told by them that appealing to an outside court was not a option and that I was to sign a confession, pay my fine and they would then decide how long I should be imprisoned.

For other examples of people being imprisoned by the EPA join the National Federation of Independent Businessmen www.nfib.org They fight for all of us. Here is an example of what has happened to other businessmen. http://www.mybusinessmag.com/fullstory.php3?sid=1091

I studied the EPA law on the cornel web site and learned my rights. I prepared the case and had my lawyer present it. At the end the law clearly turned out to be a trap for small companies to be "weeded" out and destroyed before being able to make a place for themselves in the marketplace.

Over the 20 years I have been constantly attacked on both the State and Federal levels for what they considered to be crimes committed against the "People". I use this word because it is how they phrased it. Ask yourself, what other form of government uses that phase, and then look around.

Yes, we are not in the land of the free. We are not in a democracy. We have two parties that we vote for and fight for. We watch them throw stones at each other and we take sides and continue the fight. All the while those who truly run this government sit back and laugh. (Now you think, I must be a lunatic) Maybe so. I have been fighting with the "real" government for years. This hidden party is called the "Bureaucrats". They are not elected. No party has control over them. They don't answer to anyone.

I involved family friends in both parties. Senators, State Representatives and the like to defend me. When the meetings finished where I was trying to get justice the ones truly in charge took me aside a few days later in what they called an effort to mend fences and they informed me that I had made a serious mistake. The statements that followed made things very clear. "We are here for life. They are only here until the next election. We get paid everyday to lobby for our cause and we get both parties to give us powers, one at a time, slowly. No one even knows what we are doing. We are patient."

Last fall I was issued an "Administrative" search warrant. This warrant had my name spelled incorrectly, business name was wrong, address was wrong. It stated that they were here to search for "Possible crimes that may have been committed!" Interesting. I told them of the errors in the service and that the last time I checked we still flew the "stars and stripes" They said it does not apply to them. That they actually are above the constitution and it no longer applies to them.

They investigated all day and found nothing. They then said we are coming back to me the next day with a new search warrant for my house. I asked why and they said it was because they knew I had to have hidden the documents proving the crimes they were looking for there. I then lost my temper and told them lets not wait for tomorrow lets go now! Because if I was doing something I would have destroyed what they were looking for by morning.

Upon seeing my reaction they apologized and said we are only the pawns and to calm down. After that we had a nice conversation about who was really running things at the department. I then told them that when (a specific person) grew a pair of balls he could muster the courage to show up himself as long as I could have the media present to ask him a few questions.

That was the end of that! It has been 8 months since that date and now I have unprecedented cooperation from both the EPA and the State. This was due to the success with Federal Court case and my resolve with the state to bring in the media if this continued. (interesting comment I got from the dept head. He said "there is no need to get nasty here")

We now enjoy a new relationship that is blossoming into something good that will and is starting to spread across the industry.

When you are in contact with these people be very careful and respectful while they are doing what they want. Get a personal small recorder and place it on yourself. Make sure they know they are being recorded. Make sure they know it is for your lawyers use to aid him in understanding what exactly is occurring here.

When we have done that they leave, immediately! Make sure to be respectful and not lose your temper as I did. Mine was well placed and valid and I quickly calmed down and told them I did not hold them responsible for what they were being forced to do by their superiors.

Is this a bit mellow dramatic? From an outsiders point of view? Absolutely! From my staff's point of view who has seen this up close? No!

If you desire to use the FIFRA ACT'S exemption classification status don't be making products out of the back of your garage. Make your labels, submit them to your local state Dept of Ag and make sure they sign off on it.

Once this is done are you protected? No! The federal EPA can look at what the state told you and fine and/or jail you.

This is part and parcel of the "set up". Once you have written, not verbal approval then email them to go to the EPA and have them provide you with their approval. Once you have this keep all the correspondence in a safe off site. Preferably in a bank.


These documents are the only thing between you and fines and/or jail. If you get into these problems let me know ASAP! I will do what I can to guide you to the right people for help. I am not a lawyer and cannot represent you but I can help you as "free advice".

I have 5 products that have this trail of written acceptance from the EPA and State departments. We don't want a war but we do have our ducks in a row and are poised and ready for any trouble.

Sorry about the extensive detail. I just don’t want anyone else to go through what I have
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  #27  
Old 08-10-2005, 08:36 AM
naturesdesign naturesdesign is offline
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I dont know if this helps but in Canada I tried to find out the same as you are. I was nicely informed that there is nothing organic on the market that kills weeds completely. The weeds are put in a dormant state and if you stop using what your using they will come back. So organically from what I understand there is nothing available.
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  #28  
Old 08-10-2005, 09:29 AM
naturesdesign naturesdesign is offline
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Location: kingston, Ontario, Canada
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I read you comments about vinegar and the Canadian Law. I live in Ontario and according to M of E you need a licence to apply Vinegar. Maybe not in BC. Abit of misdirection there I believe. Also in Ontariio if you are in the business of weed/pest control organic or not you need a licence.
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  #29  
Old 10-03-2005, 12:53 PM
Soil Humic Soil Humic is offline
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Organic versus In-Organic

An opinion on Organic versus In-Organic, Pyrethrums, rotenone and nicotine from a PhD Physiologist.

Well I know it’s a huge leap in faith for all you boys that have been using chemicals as part of your business all these years, to switch to an organic program. And it does not help that some companies making so called Microbial Soil Conditioners, Chicken poop fertilizers etc., are so unprofessional in their methodology, science and so forth. But consider this: I own two company’s in New Mexico, one involved with growing trees for urban horticulture and the other a Pharmaceutical lab/manufacture of Organic Soil Restoration products; In addition to being a Dr. of Physiology and Bio-Chemistry. With my Tree Farm, we are and have been for 20 years, totally organic. Our farm is the only nursery/farm in all of New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado, Texas, Oklahoma and Utah, that can ship trees to any western state without needing a chemical drench of the root ball to prevent accidental transport of exotic insects such as Japanese Beetle or Fire Aunts. We have exceeded all the JB Harmonizing agreement for the cooperating Western States and we have done so without ever using any chemical that is neither USDA NOP or OMRI approved on certified organic farms. We never use In-Organic NPK fertilizers, using only Soil Secrets Products for Soil Restoration, Microbial Inoculation and Plant Nutrition. We produce Oaks from seed to 3 inch caliper in a three year growing cycle and do so without pushing with excess nitrogen.

Second point: The human body has not and never will adapt to the chemical deluge that we expose it to with all these agricultural chemicals you are using. Cancer rates are sky rocking along with Autoimmune disorders and Learning Disabilities. Do you choose to expose you and your family’s health and risk for cancer because of your occupation? I don’t! And I can tell you with absolute certainty that these chemicals you have so much faith in, will haunt you in at some point in the future. Did you know that one of the highest risk professions for cancer is the Golf Course Supers and Workers? Guess why!

Third point: Certainly Pyrethrums and other organic approved chemicals can also be dangerous, but the half life or natural decay of these chemicals is short. They don’t persist in compost, soils or your body’s fat like the In-Organic chemicals you typically see being used. And they don’t show up in Bio-magnification in the food chain, which the other chemicals will do.

In conclusion, we have a moral and ethical obligation to our clients, family members and ourselves to change. Time is wasting!

Michael Martin Melendrez- Owner
Soil Secrets and Trees That Please
(505) 550-3246
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  #30  
Old 10-04-2005, 09:50 AM
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Grassmechanic Grassmechanic is offline
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talk about an unbiased rant...
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If you like the job Granholm is doing for Michigan, you'll love the job Obama will do for the U.S.

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