Big Roll Off Truck

Discussion in 'Heavy Equipment & Pavement' started by Andyinchville, Feb 15, 2008.

  1. Andyinchville

    Andyinchville LawnSite Senior Member
    Posts: 270

    HI All,

    As some of you may know I am looking to buy a large roll off truck.....IN my searches I have so far found 2 really good candidates....Both are tandem axle
    with a 3rd drop down axle, 20K front Floats, 8LL tranny, auto tarp, outside
    rail roll off system (reaving system (sp?)), and double frames.

    My questions are (basically both trucks are the same except for the major differences below) which is the better truck and why...

    1) One truck is an 1990 International Paystar 5000 with a Cummins 855 engine

    2) The other truck is a 1991 International 2654 with a Cummins N14 engine

    I thought the 855 and N14 were the same engine but when I searched the web it appears they are not.....which engine is better with respect to durability, power, parts availability, maintenance and repair costs?

    What is the difference between a Paystar model and 2674 model International truck....I assume just the way the body looks? (since most of the rest of the truck is just different components bolted together)....again which is better if there are real differences as far as durability, parts availability, maintenance and repair costs?

    Also, just curious, but what type of MPG's does something like this get?....I know it will be low compared to my Cummins Dodge BUT I plan on burning WMO (waste motor oil ....Filtered of course) to offset some costs.

    Thanks in advance for any and all help / comments etc...

    Andrew
     
  2. Gravel Rat

    Gravel Rat LawnSite Fanatic
    Posts: 9,544

    I have driven both styles of International. The are both set back axle trucks the Paystar has a heavier cab on it. Some have the fiberglass hood some have the steel fenders and the gullwing hood which is the one I drive.

    The 2674 is okay the cab is a little cheap and they rust worse than the Paystar cab. You will have fun with the 2674 when repairing things behind the dash :laugh:

    I had many frustrating hours working on 2674 and repairing the truck and anytime I had to fix something behind the dash it was :cry:

    The other problem with the 2674 is the front spring hanger kept coming loose from being worked. I changed the bolts it helped.

    The Paystar with the 855 is it a 350 or 400 and what cam series ?

    If its a 400BC 1 2 or 3 it will be a decent engine they smoke like a SOB but run good. The fuel mileage is okay better than some others. You want one with a JAKE the Jake holds decent on the 400s. The N-14 is okay it is electronic controlled I don't know any of the growing pains with them I never had to repair them.

    Both engines only burn nothing but diesel the N-14 is electronic so it depends on fuel pressure and the injection pump on the 855 Cummins only like clean diesel. The 855s smoke bad enough I can't see burning used engine oil doing it any good.

    If you can't afford the fuel for the truck or charge enough to cover the fuel costs you shouldn't buy the truck. I never did keep track on how much fuel either trucks burned. The two Internationals have 2 stroke power but all my 400 Cummins experience is 9000 Fords with 400 Cummins power.
     
  3. Jpocket

    Jpocket LawnSite Silver Member
    Posts: 2,278

    A paystar 5000 is a heavier truck for the most part, they were designed for more heavy duty applications like dumps or mixers. either series truck will serve well as a roll of, I think it just comes down to which on is in better shape. and also stay away from an electronic engine that is that old. A mechanical engine will be much easier to get along with in a truck of that era.

    I would also check to see what type of rears each truck has. More than likely they will we be Hendrickson susp. Please just have some one throughly look over either truck b4 you buy. B/C there is alot than can be wrong with a tri-axle and not be obvious to the naked or untrained eye.
     
  4. Andyinchville

    Andyinchville LawnSite Senior Member
    Posts: 270

    Hi,

    Thanks for the reply, I don't know right off hand what the specs of the engine are other than it was an 855....I think he said it was the big cam version....

    As far as the motor oil, I use it now in all my Cummins powered pickups...great way to save a little $$ and with all the horror stories of the new diesel being less lubrication for the pumps I figured I'd go for broke....or in this case not broke buying $3.00 / Gal diesel!
    ;-) .....I only run it about 30% waste oil to the diesel....sometimes less....BUT only because my supply is not sufficient....I need more oil! ;-)

    I wasn't sure how the big diesels handle the Waste oil but Cummins said 5% is fine....I'll probably try more tho If I can get more oil.....

    I really probably won't work the truck alot initially unless I can build up the roll off business....Otherwise it will mainly just haul my stuff and Backhoe (which I don't really use alot either)....Just want to get the truck mainly to get it running 100% (owner claims it is close to that already) and looking 100% (paint frame and cab) and then look for jobs for it (my main job is Lawn care ....almost 100% mowing) so I will probably be too busy this year to mess too much with it but at least I will have the raw materials (i.e. the truck) and have to get some roll off cans for it off ebay or heaven forbid the local retailer)....

    The International 2674 is $9500 and the Paystar 5000 is $18000 .....Somebody told me the Paystar is Aluminum cab (nice cause no rust) but then again $9000 can buy alot of bondo and paint!....well, it's not that bad actually.

    Andrew
     
  5. Gravel Rat

    Gravel Rat LawnSite Fanatic
    Posts: 9,544

    The older Paystar cabs are steel but they are riveted. The doors are aluminum.

    The 2674 I worked on the throttle pedal rusted off the floor :laugh:

    Myself if I was buying a rolloff truck it would be on a Ford L LT-9000 Chassis with 400 Cummins or 425 Cat power 13spd. I also drove LT-9000 rolloff I was going to buy the truck I used to drive but when the motor blew up that changed.
     
  6. capetrees

    capetrees LawnSite Member
    from ma
    Posts: 217

    Go with the Paystar even if it is a bit more money. As far as I have seen over the years, the Internationals are "throw away " trucks in that they don't last too long, quick turnover due to their low initial cost. The heavier specs on the Paystar also means you won't be shorted. Don't expect to burn waste oil. It's not the same as diesel and can't be mixed with it in a diesel fuel. Imagine the same situation if you wanted to mix it with gasoline. Not good. High milga e will mean an overhaul possible. Have the clutch play checked. A clutch could cost 3K or so. Have someone with experience check out as much as possible. I could go on for hours as far as what to check as having been through ALL of the repairs. Buy used and expect to repair some things to make it work. Your other option is brand new for 5-6 times the amount.
     
  7. SLSNursery

    SLSNursery LawnSite Senior Member
    Posts: 442

    I would say that the initial cost of the truck is not really the deciding factor in purchasing one. With the heavy trucks there are so many other costs that factor in, including maintenance costs, that I am always concerned with the big picture. Property taxes will be low, but insurance (not collision), registration and Heavy vehicle tax are all about equal no matter what the age. Before we bought a triaxle, I bought, and paid off a 10 wheel roll off. The best part was that it is a perfect truck, 53k GVW Model 4900 - Not quite heavy enough to be a headache. A little light for stone and dirt, but never a problem with containers of refuse when we occasionally haul them. We use it for landscaping and material delivery as well with a couple of flatbed bodies including a piggyback forklift. Worst part - It has a DT466 - I can't seem to find the testicles no matter where I look. And, as a special gift we had to do an inframe engine rebuild at 85k miles. If I remember correctly, the truck was only 8 years old at the time, and it is 12 years old now. If the same thing happened today, I'd be hard pressed to justify that cost for a rebuild as compared to the current value of the truck. Another key factor here was versatility as compared to a standard hoist. This truck has a stinger. That is an extendable tail. When I put 19-20 foot cans on it, it dumps like a dump truck rather than dragging the rear end of a can out for these long piles.


    If you want to start a roll-off business, why don't you walk before you run. We have 3 roll-offs - 2 small hooks and one Tandem International. We have not found the container rental aspect of the business to be worth pursuing even though we have some cans. Instead, we use the cans, or rent them out to select customers for short term jobs. When you get involved with the regular container business, I feel that you really need to have plenty of cans, a reliable truck, and some capital behind you in order to make money. Trying to pull that off on a shoestring is difficult in my opinion. Just container availability on a small scale can be a problem, especially since customers seem to think they can keep the can for 1 month while they pick away at a project. That doesn't work for us at all.

    As far as a good used truck, I'm sure there are some out there. In 2004 we bought a used 2000 triaxle for about $65k. It has been a great truck. It does not nickel and dime us for the most part. It hits us hard with 50s and 100s! The cost of clutch alone in one of your picks would be substantial compared to the purchase price. How about replacement front tires - we replaced the tie rod ends and put 2 new 425s on last week. They were almost $600 each, and I didn't go for the name brand this time. Just regular maintenance and repair of the suspension components was a few grand. Out of nowhere an o-ring in one of the injectors in the Cat 425 started to leak. Another nice little repair bill. You can't even try to figure that one out on your own. We do some of the work ourselves, as I predict you might suggest will work for you, but once you get involved with a big project yourself, then the truck is offline, and you really aren't earning with it.

    I guess that was a lot of rambling, since I had a few minutes at the computer. Sorry. But to answer your question, I would say neither is the better bet. Keep looking and maybe scale down a little bit. As far as MPG, I think we get b/w 6 and 8 MPG. Used Oil?? - give it to the guys who want to heat their shop with it. I don't have much data on those Cummins models, although we have plenty of the smaller 5.9, 3.9 motors and they are very reliable in many different applications. Easy to maintain, and easy to get parts for.

    Good Luck
     
  8. ksss

    ksss LawnSite Fanatic
    Posts: 7,131

    IH trucks don't last long? Are you kidding? Think about this for a minute. These trucks are largely a collection of Catalog parts. That goes for all of them. I have had Peterbuilt and IH trucks. The only thing that separates one from the other is the cabs and electronics in the cab. The engines, transmissions, axles are all sourced out and are largely available to all Class 8 OEMs. What wears out on an IH will wear out on any other truck. The cabs are the main differences. The Peterbilt trucks (378 being my personal favorite) are to me the most comfortable. I have never gotten comfortable in KW trucks. The older IH trucks take the word utilitarian and give it new meaning. The newer trucks are much better. I have had several high mileage mid 80's IH dump trucks with over 500K and I have very little problems with them. They are not all that comfortable but dependable they are. They are reasonably priced and easy to get parts for if needed because there a million of them out there. Pete and KW hold their value better and are more comfortable and probably most would say look better. However if your not in a position to invest a large amount of money in a truck, whether the material was dumped by a Pete or IH no one really cares.


    Quick note on mixing oil in the fuel. Went through a MT Port when I picked up my Circle R side dump in a friends T800. They looked at the fuel in the tanks to see if it was red. It was black. The truck was just purchased and the prior owner had mixed oil in the fuel. The dicks at the port thought we were trying to cover the red fuel with waste oil. They took samples and sent them to the lab. No red fuel, which was a good thing.

    The IH 5000 is a very HD truck. I would also if your serious take the truck to a HD truck mechanic and have him tell you what the truck will need. They all need something when they are that old. You need to know what the truck will cost initially. It is worth the couple hours to have him pour over the truck and write the defects down. It may help get you a better price as well.
     
  9. Gravel Rat

    Gravel Rat LawnSite Fanatic
    Posts: 9,544

    For us here a tandem axle rolloff with a 57,500 gvw is heavy enough. You can pack a 40 yard can with 12 tons. A rolloff packs a little less than a regular tandem axle dump where 15 tons is legal load.

    The old Ford I used to run it was a good truck. I first learned on a Mack.

    Tires are expensive you figure for 11R22.5 or 11R24.5 your going to pay alteast 400-450 for a Bandag cap. You can get the Ohtsu closed shoulder drive for 420 a tire but they are no d*mn good in mud. The 425 Supersingles are around 1200 each you never run the cheap ones. They usually get 3 to 6 months out of them or thats what we got out of them. On the gravel trucks if you got 6 months out of set of 425 Supersingle steers your doing really good.

    With rolloff trucks you are into landfills or dump sites it is easy to gash a tire on something sharp lurking in the mud.
     
  10. capetrees

    capetrees LawnSite Member
    from ma
    Posts: 217

    Thats not to say the petes and the IHs don't wear out faster. They are put together cheaply and run quick and dirty. Not a truck for the long time ownership. Thats mainly why municipalities buy them and say not Macks or Western Star. And the beauty of a Mack is that even if you own it forever and a day, everything is replacable and worth replacing. Petes or IH get old, owners get a new one instead of fixing from my experience.
     

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