Cheap 2,4-D from TSC compared to Lesco's Momentum

Discussion in 'Pesticide & Herbicide Application' started by scfalconry, Jun 6, 2006.

  1. scfalconry

    scfalconry LawnSite Member
    Posts: 22

    Hope someone is bored and wants to play along... grab a calculator and help me become a lawn professional. <grin> Please?


    Is there a significant difference in the 2,4-D in one product -vs- the 2,4-D in the other? Both mention being Bermuda being sensitive... but the Amine 400 2,4-D reads as if.. it it should not be applied to bermuda. The Momentum FX just gives a warning about applying when turf is stressed and mentions minimum cutting height, etc...

    In my laymans perspective both are 2,4-D based and about the same strength... but one can be used on Bermuda and one can't. Why?
    BTW... you might notice the bold on LAYMANS. In case anyone wants to give me the "Aren't you licensed routine?" No, I'm not licensed. I have study guides in hand as well as exam schedule and location/dates the exam is given around the state. Exam fees are in hand ... however the study material is more about safety (environmental and personal) than it is about product use. So I'm seeking information from the WWW. i want to do what is right for myself and the environment... but I darn sure don't want to kill a customers lawn either.

    Similarities between the two 2,4-D products:
    They are both nearly 45% solutions.
    Both indicate being mixed at 1 to 1.5 oz /1000 sq ft.
    Both have 2,4-D as largest active ingredient.

    Differences...
    One 2,4-D is (derived?) from Triisoropanolamine Salt and the other from Dimethylamine Salt.
    Momentum has 2 other active ingredients ...
    Momentum FX is 2.286 lb/gal and the Amine 400 is 3.8lbs/gal of the 2,4-Dichlorophenoxyacetic acid equivalent. <--- this is the biggest thing I see.

    If the Amine 400 were applied at only .7oz/1000 sqft instead of 1 oz / 1000sq ft ....wouldn't it be nearly identical to the Momentum's 1.oz / 1000 sqft?

    Here is some data for each products:

    Lesco Momentum FX From Lesco for $61 for 1gal treats 128M cost 48 cents to treat 1000sqft.
    Active ingredients:
    Triisoropanolamine Salt of 2,4-Dischlorophenoxyacetic Acid 44.2%
    Trithylamine Salt of 3,5,6-Trichloro-2-Pyridinyloxyacetic Acid 3.31%
    1-Methylheptyl Ester of Fluroxypyr: [(4-amino-3-5-dichloro-6-floro-2-pryidinyl) oxy] acetic Acid, 1methylheptyl Ester 8.52%
    Use 1.1 to 1.5oz /1000sq ft
    Can be used in:
    Fescues, Ryegrasses, Bluegrass, Bermudagrass, Centipede, Zoysia & Bahia

    Amine 400 2,4-D Weed Killer From TSC for $35 for 1gal Treats 128M Cost 28cents to treat 1000 sqft.
    Active Ingredients:
    Dimethylamine salt od 2,4-Dichlorophenoxyacetic acid 46.4%
    Inside label says that this product could severely injure creeping grasses like (zoysia, bermuda, St. Augustine etc.. etc..)

    Thanks,
    Marty
     
  2. indyturf

    indyturf LawnSite Bronze Member
    from Indy
    Posts: 1,873

    its hard to compare the two by price, Momentum is much better on the hard to control weeds where 24D by itself is OK for some of the easier to control weeds. I would suggest using a 3way weed-control that includes 24D, it will cost less than momentum but will be much more effective than 24D alone.
     
  3. nik

    nik LawnSite Member
    Posts: 184

    No. Your comparing 1 ingredient vs that ingredient plus two others. You may get a broader spectrum of control with the multi-ingreient product or they may not even be necessary to cintrol what you need to. If the cheaper stuff is inherently more dangerous to the lawns you might encounter, would whatever yyou saved in intail costs be more than replacing a lawn or two?? Don't forget to add in whatever potential future earnings a lost cutomer would have brought you.

    Is a 2,4-D product what you need for your control needs?? Will other ingredients do the job as well for less? Could you reduce your costs and need to apply product with some effective IPM?
     
  4. scfalconry

    scfalconry LawnSite Member
    Posts: 22

    Thank both of you for your replies....with a lil' help like this I might get a better grip on some of this stuff.

    INDYTURF...
    I've looked at the Three-Way from Lesco. It cautioned against applying in air temp higher than 90F ... but other than that it seems like winner. I can't wait to try it out.

    NIK...
    Sorry I wasn't clear... I know watering down the Amine 400 which only has one active ingredient will not make its performance just like the Momentum FX which has three active ingredients. I meant would the 2,4-D in each be comparable to one another once the Amine 400 was diluted to 0.7oz/1M. Again I apologize... you gave me the correct answer for the question I asked. Only I got caught up in trying to type all the chemical names correctly do a few calculations and then screwed up on asking the question. ;)

    What confuses me is.... up until a few days ago... I thought 24d was 24d. Like apples are apples! Now I'm noticing that one 24D is listed as Dimethylamine salt od 2,4-Dichlorophenoxyacetic acid and the other as Triisoropanolamine Salt of 2,4-Dischlorophenoxyacetic. Does this significantly change the properties of the chemical in its abilities to control weeds? ie....If I had equivelent amounts of these two different 2,4D chemicals... and I applied them both to the same amount of lawn, same turf type, same envoronment.... Would they both have the same qualities of control?

    Thanks again... please be patient with me... I'm trying to educate myself before I turn myself loose on the general populace. :) There is a course at a local tech college for turf and ornamental pesticide application... I wonder if the syllabus is more of the same environmental, safety, calibration, backflow, equipment maintenance, chemical storage & tranport etc... etc.. The EXAM STUDY books... for my state are heavily biased toward these issues.... they have virtually no mention of what product to use in waht scenerio for control of this vegetation in etc. etc. I guess the only way to gain this specific info is to READ READ READ product labels and occasionaly lean on the more experienced operators like you.

    Thanks again,
    Marty
     
  5. scfalconry

    scfalconry LawnSite Member
    Posts: 22

    I believe I found my answer.... if I'm barking up the wrong tree... someone please let me know. It all boils down to the acid equivalent of each product. Adjust mix rates to equalize the ratios of acid equivalent in each... 2,4D is 2,4D! Doesn't matter if it is one of the amine (salt derived) types or the various ester types. The acid attached is 2,4-D.

    The one bumb in this hypothesis is ... doesn't being carried on an ester vs salt make 2,4D more easily absorbed? So ... now I'm back at square one... It is the same acid... but absorbed quicker or slower because of the vehicle. <hahahah> I'm learning just enough to realize I don't know crap. :dizzy:

    Moral of the story... read label & don't deviate from label.

    Ok.. thats enough research for one night... gotta get up and get back to cuttin in the early AM.

    BTW... great article on this at http://www.ipm.uiuc.edu/bulletin/pastpest/articles/200002j.html

    Thanks all...g-nite errrr morning,
    Marty :waving:
     

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