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EPA emissions requirements and Ethanol fuel. How much of your equipment is ruined?

42K views 67 replies 33 participants last post by  CL&T 
#1 ·
Seems like tons of people are having problems with their equipment, especially the newer stuff, due to EPA mandated emissions equipment and the use of Ethanol in gas. I was hoping people would post their problems in one spot so we could see how big the problem is and see what good solutions we can find to help work around the problems we are having.
 
#2 ·
Great thread....

I spent two hours last night researching this and here is what i've come up with....

Ethanol will eat away at your fuel lines and carb diaphragms, gaskets, etc...not to mention it holds moisture.

So far i found a product that combats the moisture issue which is Ethanol Shield. As for the eroding fuel lines there are marine grade fuel lines that are ethanol safe. I believe you have to look for SAE J1527 type B fuel lines.

This is all i have so far, my Stihl equipment has held up good (other than new carbs every year) but i only run two days a week. I am buying all new equipment next month from mower to handhelds and no chance am i going to risk any carb issues.
 
#6 ·
We were having problems with fuel lines, primer bulbs and water in the fuel all caused by ethanol. My dealer suggested we use a product called Startron in our fuel for 2 and 4 cycle equipment. It worked great, cured all my problems.
found a good price / supplier? What a scam that we have to add product to our fuel huh?
 
#7 ·
fuel lines and fuel grommets (that attach to the tank) on my hedge trimmers are getting eaten away. I suspect it's from those tools not getting daily use (unlike my line trimmers and blowers), so the fuel is sitting in the lines/touching the grommets.
 
#8 ·
I have not had any noticeable problems with my fuel (knock on wood). I recently started using mid-grade fuel (opposed to the regular I was using) in my handhelds and noticed that they start easier now.

I do use quality fuel and not just whatever I happen to come by or can get the cheapest.
 
#9 ·
I have not had any noticeable problems with my fuel (knock on wood). I recently started using mid-grade fuel (opposed to the regular I was using) in my handhelds and noticed that they start easier now.

I do use quality fuel and not just whatever I happen to come by or can get the cheapest.
What do you mean "quality fuel"? Anything to back that up? There's a fuel refinery near one of my jobs. There isn't a spigot marked "the good stuff". Virtually all fuel comes from the same place. If you have any solid evidence that one brand of fuel is better than another I'd love to hear it? The biggest difference between brands of fuel is marketing. 89 octane E-10 is what it is. Unfortunately there is no pure gas available within 100 miles of St Louis (that I've found).

As far as fuel problems, fuel lines, primer bulbs, diaphragms. Only in the handhelds. I have several old Toro T-bar walk behinds, one a 1998, one a 1994. Both with Kohler command engines. No fuel problems from them ever. Both have a zillion hours on them.

I've heard (no proof) that the ethanol blend is not very precise. One batch of E-10 may be 5% ethanol, another batch may be nearly 20%. Purely heresay, but it does explain the occasional meltdown of plastic/rubber.

I understand the EPA is in the roadtest phase with E-15... Won't that be lovely? More ethanol. Probably find the point it kills 4-cycle stuff soon.

The question I would like answered: does it make sense from an enviromental perspective to switch to these more "environmentally friendly" standards and fuels? How "green" is it to have to replace the equipment every couple years (or less). And how much fuel gets "dumped" due to concerns of age or moisture? Or due to DIY service to combat rotted fuel lines etc? I suspect in typical fashion, the new Government standards and fuels have made matters worse rather than better.
Posted via Mobile Device
 
#10 ·
What do you mean "quality fuel"? Anything to back that up? There's a fuel refinery near one of my jobs. There isn't a spigot marked "the good stuff". Virtually all fuel comes from the same place. If you have any solid evidence that one brand of fuel is better than another I'd love to hear it? The biggest difference between brands of fuel is marketing. 89 octane E-10 is what it is. Unfortunately there is no pure gas available within 100 miles of St Louis (that I've found).

As far as fuel problems, fuel lines, primer bulbs, diaphragms. Only in the handhelds. I have several old Toro T-bar walk behinds, one a 1998, one a 1994. Both with Kohler command engines. No fuel problems from them ever. Both have a zillion hours on them.

I've heard (no proof) that the ethanol blend is not very precise. One batch of E-10 may be 5% ethanol, another batch may be nearly 20%. Purely heresay, but it does explain the occasional meltdown of plastic/rubber.

I understand the EPA is in the roadtest phase with E-15... Won't that be lovely? More ethanol. Probably find the point it kills 4-cycle stuff soon.

The question I would like answered: does it make sense from an enviromental perspective to switch to these more "environmentally friendly" standards and fuels? How "green" is it to have to replace the equipment every couple years (or less). And how much fuel gets "dumped" due to concerns of age or moisture? Or due to DIY service to combat rotted fuel lines etc? I suspect in typical fashion, the new Government standards and fuels have made matters worse rather than better.
Posted via Mobile Device
I have absolutely no SCIENTIFIC proof, just some real world testing.

A couple years ago, me and my uncle were curious to see if the advertising claims of companies like Shell, were true...that they actually do help clean the fuel system and improve your mileage. While we didn't actually tear down an engine to see how well the fuel "cleaned", we did test the fuel economy improvements.

At the time I was driving a diesel truck, so I couldn't use my truck for the testing. We used my uncle's 1997-ish Honda accord 4 cylinder. For work he would travel several hundred miles a week (puts about 20,000+ miles on a vehicle each year). For years he had just been using fuel from multiple different stations as he needed fuel. He is very good at keeping track of how much fuel he uses, the miles he gets out of each tank, etc. So we had number to work off of from the start.

Like I said, he originally would go to just about any station as he needed gas...the old admiral station by his house, a marathon station off the highway, whatever. So after deciding to see if the claims by SHELL were true, he only filled up with shell fuel, same REGULAR gas that he always bought (never did the mid grade or higher fuels). After a couple tanks of Shell gasoline, he was getting a constant 30 miles more on a tank of gas from shell over gas from various stations. He was driving the same roads before and after switching to shell, there was no difference in the roads he took before or after.
 
#11 ·
I'm not a supporter of ethanol fuel but we have had it in our area for about 10 years now. In fact we haven't had a choice for about 10 years. I don't have any fuel related issues at all. I actually think I have less fuel related problems now than I did before. Varnished up carbs use to be the norm but not anymore. The ethanol does a very nice job of keeping the fuel system clean. I think ethanol tends to be the normal excuse for any carb/fuel related problems. Is it really ethanol fuel related though?? I have plenty of examples of dried up rubber components prior to ethanol fuel. Is it possible that these rubber components are coming from China and being made with inferior materials?? Just a thought.
 
#12 ·
What do you mean "quality fuel"? Anything to back that up? There's a fuel refinery near one of my jobs. There isn't a spigot marked "the good stuff". Virtually all fuel comes from the same place. If you have any solid evidence that one brand of fuel is better than another I'd love to hear it? The biggest difference between brands of fuel is marketing.
I have seen lesser grades of fuel cause problems especially in 2 strokes. In cars and trucks the biggest problems are usually with fuel injectors plugging up and deposits inside the combustion chamber. In my city virtually all of the gas costs the same so it doesn't make sense not to use a quality fuel.

And there is definately something different about BP gas. It's clear instead of amber like every other fuel.
 
#13 ·
I've heard (no proof) that the ethanol blend is not very precise. One batch of E-10 may be 5% ethanol, another batch may be nearly 20%. Purely heresay, but it does explain the occasional meltdown of plastic/rubber. Posted via Mobile Device
And if you can prove that it is higher than 10% the distributor will have to pay for any damages. They are allowed only 10% by law. Anymore and they're in trouble.

I haven't had anything ruined by ethanol as of yet, but the other thing to think about is make sure you don't use dry gas anymore. You will be increasing the amount of alcohol in the gas and cause even more problems, even burning up cylinders.

Many, many problems in the past couple years since our supplier switched. Filters, carb cleanings, water in fuel, plugs fouling, hard starting, etc. Stuff is crap.

I have some Startron and I guess have not been using it regularly enough to take care of our problems. Have to get a little more regular about it. NAPA carries it in small bottles, i bought a gallon from J Thomas, would like to find the 5 gallon pail because it is expensive, but so are the problems we're having.
 
#14 ·
I haven't had anything ruined by ethanol as of yet, but the other thing to think about is make sure you don't use dry gas anymore. You will be increasing the amount of alcohol in the gas and cause even more problems, even burning up cylinders.
Can you explain this more? Dry gas? Do you mean gas without the startron?
 
#16 ·
Dry gas as in the alcohol stuff you put in to de-ice gas, mainly in the winter. HEET or whatever you want to call it.
Thanks. My mom loves that stuff....
 
#17 ·
Ethanol is an alcohol, if you add another alcohol-based de-icer or water remover to gas that is already 10+% ethanol you might be doing more harm than good. The more alcohol of any kind added to gas the more the gas/alcohol blend will pull water from the air into the gas.
 
#18 ·
Ethanol destroys engines and gasoline is costly, propane industry
officials say, with some now set to ask the region's maintenance
officials to give the cleaner combustible a trial run in the area's
commercial mowers, trimmers and blowers.
They intend to pose the question at a Feb. 4 meeting with municipal
officials and lawn care businesses, as advocates of propane-powered
lawn equipment make the case for what they contend is a greener
fuel.
The conversion to propane could cost municipalities roughly $1,500
per commercial mower engine, or just over half the cost of replacing
an entire engine, sales officials say. But the savings over gasoline in
spillage, theft and reduced maintenance costs could pay for the
propane upgrade within a year, they said.
"Chattanooga's trying to have a go-green push, and be a city on the
leading edge of the green industry with their buses and other facets,"
said Chad Haun of Southern Turf. "Why not do it in parks and
recreation, where they're out mowing eight to 10 hours per day?"
But Steve Leach, administrator of public works for Chattanooga, was
cautious about embracing the idea.
"Anytime you can burn cleaner fuel it's a good thing, but if you have
to retrofit the equipment and worry about refilling, that makes it a little
bit more problematic," Leach said.
Ethanol gunks lines
John Watson, owner of Common Ground Landscape Management in
Knoxville, participated in a three-year study through the University of
Tennessee and said he converted all his units over to propane.
Following his initial investment in engine conversion and a new filling
station, he said his costs have fallen 10 percent since he began using
cleaner-burning propane.
"My mechanic found that we could go further between services, and
[propane] is quite a bit cheaper in the summer," Watson said.
Lawn care and municipal officials confirm that they're on the hunt for
an alternative to today's gasoline-ethanol mix, currently available at
gas stations in Chattanooga for about $2.95 per gallon, because it
gunks up spark plugs, fuel lines and carburetors.
Wholesale propane, on the other hand, can be purchased for closer
to $1.45 per gallon, or about $2.80 per gallon at retail, according to
the U.S. Department of Energy, although it isn't as widely available as
regular unleaded and must be kept in special storage tanks.
"This is all going to be new to us," Tommy Burnette, general
supervisor at Chattanooga's Parks and Recreation Department, said
Tuesday. "Anytime you can do something for the environment it could
be a good thing, as long as its not astronomically high to switch over."
Cheaper operations seen
Jerry Lindsey helps outdoor equipment dealers to convert gasoline
engines to propane on behalf of Metro Lawn, a conversion kit seller,
and said converted units see an 80 percent drop in emissions and 40
percent drop in operational costs.
"Lawn guys who send their men out with tanks of gasoline, 10
percent of that fuel ends up in somebody's vehicle, but that won't
work with propane," he said. "Plus, that ethanol shellacks the
carburetors. It's a maintenance headache."
"The ethanol [mixed with in gasoline] is a big problem we're having
right now," agreed Burnette.
Barrett Fischer, owner of Chattanooga-based Fischer Irrigation &
Lighting, said he's also having a problem with the current 10 percent
ethanol/gasoline mixture.
He's considering the switch to propane in part because the ethanol,
especially in small engines, is "clogging up injectors and carburetors,"
which necessitates replacement every two months, up from once a
year with regular gasoline, or even less often with propane.
Feds boost level to 15%
To further complicate matters, the Environmental Protection Agency
last week expanded on a previous decision to allow the sale of
gasoline blended with 15 percent ethanol, though the EPA admitted
that the new blend will not be suitable for small engines or vehicles
built before 2001.
"As soon as they start putting in the mandated 15 percent ethanol, I'll
be looking to buy a gizmo to put propane in our small equipment,"
said Paul Page, director of general services for the city. "I've seen
what 10 percent will do to engines."
Page said that while he's open to the idea of switching his fleet to
propane, the cost savings had better be substantial. It wouldn't be the
first time propane has been tried.
"It was very unsuccessful," he said. "At the time, the valves on the
vehicles were not sodium and you'd burn the valves and the clutch
out."
Fischer anticipates long-term fuel cost and maintenance savings by
switching, but he is worried about putting too many eggs in an
untested basket.
While gasoline can be bought almost anywhere, propane supplies are
less plentiful.
"If my guys are out mowing somewhere and they run out of propane,
where are they going to fuel up?" he asked.
There are currently about 50 lawn care businesses using roughly
2,000 propane mowers nationally, mainly concentrated in Texas and
Florida, according to Metro Lawn. Metro Lawn can take care of these issues by providing gas your way, how you need it, when you need it.
 
#19 ·
Plain facts folks, we aren't going back to straight oil based gas equipment. Alternative fuels are only going to evolve and be improved over time. Small equip/engine mfg need to get on board or risk being left in the dust on this. Which mfg's want to get innovative? Those are the ones that will survive, not the ones tipping up their nose doing the same old things they did 30 years ago. Just ask GM how that worked out for them.

I give Kohler credit for development of the EFI Flex Fuel small engine. Who's next?
 
#20 ·
Go to Pure-gas.org to find stations near you. Also feel free to add any stations that offer pure gasoline that are not listed.

The products I recommend are Marine Grade Stabil (not the pink stuff!) and StarTron. I am in the Metro Orlando area of Florida and our Ethanol issues are especially bad.

Personally, I use "old school" Shindaiwa hand helds and use only pure gas since new rubber parts, gaskets etc are getting hard to find.
Using Non- Ethanol fuel is the only way to completely alleviate all the alcohol fuel related problems since additives will only correct some of them.
 
#21 ·
The question I would like answered: does it make sense from an enviromental perspective to switch to these more "environmentally friendly" standards and fuels? How "green" is it to have to replace the equipment every couple years (or less).
Gasoline with ethanol isn't and wasn't implemented to be "green". It was a feel good move by the government to make people think we are doing something about foreign oil dependence which it actually does little for. You get less mileage from ethanol fuel than straight gas. E-85 has been shown to be damaging to flex-fuel vehicles which are actually designed to run on 85% ethanol blend. The government provides a subsidy for corn producers from which ethanol is made and that has had the effect of driving up the prices of other corn products like corn flakes.

So in reality ethanol is just another goverment intrusion that benefits a special interest group at the expense of everybody else.
 
#22 ·
Go to Pure-gas.org to find stations near you. Also feel free to add any stations that offer pure gasoline that are not listed.

The products I recommend are Marine Grade Stabil (not the pink stuff!) and StarTron. I am in the Metro Orlando area of Florida and our Ethanol issues are especially bad.

Personally, I use "old school" Shindaiwa hand helds and use only pure gas since new rubber parts, gaskets etc are getting hard to find.
Using Non- Ethanol fuel is the only way to completely alleviate all the alcohol fuel related problems since additives will only correct some of them.
Great link; found pure gas right around the corner! :clapping:

Am having the same problems as everybody else. I think using mid grade & Lucas helped us a little bit, but it's hard to tell.

Also, with so many "ethanol" additives on the market, how do you make a decision on which one? Does anybody rate them, like Consumers Report?
 
#23 · (Edited)
I haven't had any problems with fuel in my equipment whether it is line trimmers blowers or my bad boy zero turn. I we reading some of the earlier posts and i am just a little unsure as to what is really going on here. Apparently there is a higher quality fuel provider? which companies would those be?
Also i maybe reading this wrong but some of the posts talk about using the low grade fuel 87 octane compared to the mid grade 89 or high grade 93 levels of octane. The difference in the fuels is actually opposite of most of the arguments presented. The Higher levels of fuel contain more ethanol than the low grade.
Certain engines (mainly air cooled engines) can create hot spots and cause the fuel to ignite prematurely or detonate or knock. The way they changed that a long time ago was to put additives in the fuels typically ethanol. Ethanol Changes the volatility of the gas. With ethanol it takes more pressure to make the fuel detonate, therefore ensuring that it doesn't knock or tear up your engine. Unless you are running a diesel engine you want the fuel as controlled as possible so that your spark plug is what ignites the fuel. you do not want your engine detonating while the piston has not yet reached the top of its stroke, because if it does, it will try to push that piston back down the wrong way and cause serious problems to your engines.
Although I read the other posts or primer bubbles and gas lines corroding and have not yet had that happen, those are sooo cheap to replace i would much rather replace a primer bubble than the engine.
 
#24 · (Edited)
Also i maybe reading this wrong but some of the posts talk about using the low grade fuel 87 octane compared to the mid grade 89 or high grade 93 levels of octane. The difference in the fuels is actually opposite of most of the arguments presented. The Higher levels of fuel contain more ethanol than the low grade.
Absolutely not true. The amount of ethanol has nothing to do with the octane and it's not an anti-knock additive like lead was. Its required by law to be no more than 10% for any E10 fuel and is simply thrown in the tank truck at the fuel terminal to be mixed with the gasoline as it all slosshes around on route to the gas station. The only reason it's added is because the government wants the dumb ass public to think we are doing something about foreign oil while they subsidize corn producers. They couldn't give a s*** if it damages our equipment and vehicles. This is purely political and has no benefit other than a negative one.
 
#25 ·
Unfortunately, this is correct albeit a bit political.
Sorry about being political but there are some people out there who don't know why ethanol is put in gasoline. Unfortunately there is no answer other than politicians.

There is a thread similar to this over at a Ford F-150 forum where somebody asked about using E85 (85% ethanol). Once again the government required all manufacturers to produce gasoline powered vehicles that will run on E85 (Flex Fuel). But if you read the owners manual Ford cautions about higher maintenance (more frequent oil changes) and not running on E85 all the time. That should send up red flags right there. What it looks like to me is that they did the best they could to comply but it's at the expense of higher maintenance and shorter engine life. I think if they could legally get away with it they would just say that in the manual but you have to read between the lines to come to that conclusion.
 
#26 ·
Octane rating does not relate to the energy content of the fuel (see heating value). It is only a measure of the fuel's tendency to burn in a controlled manner, rather than exploding in an uncontrolled manner. Where the octane number is raised by blending in ethanol, energy content per volume is reduced.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating

or this article showing the reasons WHAT ethanol does for octane rating. Now if you want to say that it is the government giving subsidies to someone your probably right. could they use a different additive to the fuel to achieve the same thing? yes! there are many other candidates on the list in the Wikipedia article. But that's a different arguement in my opinion. I hate the government in my business too but the only way to change that is move or vote.

http://retail.petro-canada.ca/en/independent/2069.aspx
Why is ethanol an effective octane booster?

The octane number written on the gas pump is Anti-Knock Index (AKI). It’s an average of two octane ratings using the same test equipment but using different operating conditions. The methods produce a Research Octane number (RON) and a Motor Octane Number (MON). Both were once considered important and that’s why AKI is an average of the two. With modern engines and fuels systems, recent studies have shown that RON is more important than MON. So in these cars, the higher the RON the better these cars perform. For an AKI rating of 91 the lower the MON the higher the RON. This difference is called sensitivity. All gasoline components have different sensitivity. Most hydrocarbon components have low sensitivity. Ethanol has high sensitivity and so, modern performance cars benefit from gasolines with ethanol. Why does ethanol have higher sensitivity? One reason is related to the cooler combustion that results from ethanol combustion. Higher knock tendency is directly related to higher combustion temperature.
Here is a comparison of two fuels with different octane with and without ethanol.

91 Grade - no ethanol
RON 97.2
MON 85.6
Ultra 94 - with ethanol
RON 101.5
MON 88

Notice the difference in RON number from 91 grade without ethanol (97.2) and the RON of Ultra 94 (101.5). The difference is 4.3 numbers. That is significantly more than the 3 numbers difference between 94 and 91 AKI labelled on the pump. That is why gasoline with ethanol can be the best performance fuel for today's cars.
 
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