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Guys and their *pop-ups*

143K views 86 replies 30 participants last post by  DVS Hardscaper 
#1 · (Edited)
I have a few pet peeves from this line of work.

And one of my favorite is when I go on a sales presentation and a prosepctive client goes over all the details of their project and they tell me "and when we bury this downspout we'll need a pop-up emitter at the end of the pipe". And I respond "oh, why do you want a pop-up?" They respond "because they guy that was here 2 days ago said we need one"!! And this is when I need to pause my presentation and spend 15 minutes going over my thoughts on pop ups!

(Let me back up here. For the disclaimer, we are in MD. We have winter. We have snow. We have ice. We have frozen ground. )

Pop-ups - the quick, easy solution for those that DON'T know how handle a drainage issue!

Pop-ups - an inexpensive cost alternative to appease the customer so they think you have a grasp on how to handle their drainage issue, without having to resort to more costy measures to properly contend with the issue!

Folks -

I've been waiting for an opportunity to snap a photo of the ground covered in ice to convince prospective clients that pop ups and NOT what they need. Here is a picture I shot the other week to include in my arsenol of photograghs. In the pic, you can tell there is ice ontop of the ground, right? But really, it was a warm day out, snow was melting off the roofs.

Folks, tell me how on earth a pop up emitter is supposed to function WHEN IT'S BURRIED BELOW A SOLID SHEET OF ICE!!



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#4 ·
If there is not an area to daylight the drain to the face of a wall, or something vertical for that matter, you will end up using an NDS popup drain, unless you can dump into an existing drain line that might feed to the city sewer. We do all the time in TEXAS, but obviously we don't have the freeze snow issue.

I could see a big problem if the roof melts ice, gutters fill with water, but the popup is frozen shut, then the downspouts pop off the house due to weight... now that would be an issue not to use a popup drain.

 
#5 ·
Andrew how do you end your pipe runs?
We simply daylight the pipe(s) and allow the water to exit and spill into the lawn. Many clients start with saying they don't want the pipe in the yard because of unsightyness or trip hazards. Well, the water valve in the front lawn and the sewer clean out in the front lawn is a trip hazard! As far as asthetics - do you want a pretty yard or do you want to get the water off your roof and away from your foundation?

One thing I think we need to start doing is placing grates on the exit end of the pipe as we recently had a job where a rodent make a home in the pipe!

We have been doin hardscapes for almost 13 years (for those that forgot!) and to this day we have NOT installed a single pop up emitter.

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#6 ·
We use them quite often and what I tell the client is come early march when the snow is melting and the ground is frozen I tell them to disconnect at the downspout. The ground is frozen anyway so having it drain to daylight isn't going to do it much good in the winter anyway. They are a clean solution to spring summer and autumn drainage woes.
 
#8 · (Edited)
I use them all the time without issue. As with anything there is a certain level of maintenance that one must perform. Believe it or not, there are some properties that will not allow a pipe to be daylighted and in those cases, pop-ups work quite well.
:) Now we're gettin the responses I was anticipating!!! :)

You mean after your job is all said and done there is WORK that someone is supposed to remember to do?? Your jobs come with home work assignments?

CertPro, could you please share with us the "maintenance" that must be performed. And who is responsible for performing this "maintenance"?

Might this "maintenance" share similar tasks with home owners watering their new plants? We all know how well that goes!

I certainly hope you're not saying the client whom is working 60 to 70 hours a week and has their hands full with taking his/her 3 kids to their sporting events in the evenings and on weekends, and is helping the kids with their homework is supposed to take care of this "maintenance".

Or I certainly hope you're not going to say the widowed, 64 year old retired female school teacher had you build a 400 SF patio is supposed to go out on that ice and chissel it away from the pop up?

Please tell me I'm over reacting so my blood pressure can stop boiling!!
 
#10 ·
As far as the pop-up emitter not "popping" there really is no solution besides not using one at all or making sure to get it "popped" yourself. And yes, I'd rather daylight a pipe than use a pop-up...its just easier. However, a pop-up is an easier solution than approval for a drainage pipe. Here in Jersey I have to jump through hoops to get approval. It just isn't worth it. Between the engineers and the township approvals its a pain in the ass. Drawings, roof footage calculations, pit sizes, approved stone...the back and forth to the township..argghhhh. It sucks! So, call me lazy, say I'm not doing the job right, saving on the job cost, say whatever you want...placing a pop-up (again if can't daylight) is simply easier.

However, at a minimum at least make sure they are installed correctly. When/if we use the pop-up emitters we make sure to drill a hole (if one isn't already present) on the 90 elbow to the pop-up. At the spot that the pop-up emitter is located we auger a 36" wide by about a 36" deep hole (below the actual elbow). That gets backfilled with filter fabric and 3/4" clean stone. That way any excess water in the pipe is able to "trickle" out of the pipe. That solves the "freezing in the pipe" issue. Some don't do this and you can tell b/c there is water visable in the pipe when you take off the pop-up. As a result the pipe is usally sticking above the ground were the mower blades nail it.

Not that I have installed hundreds of these pop-ups but of the few I've used there hasn't been any major problem with the winter snow. The only time it actually is a problem is if we get a terrential rain with more than a few inches of snow/ice already on the ground. If it is just melting snow off the roof the hole in the bottom of the elbow is enough to accept the trickle from the roof.

Fire Away DVS, I enjoy your responses and your topics.:waving:
 
#11 ·
One thing I think we need to start doing is placing grates on the exit end of the pipe as we recently had a job where a rodent make a home in the pipe!
Placing the grate on the end will eventually make it clog (in our experience at least). Unless you want to give the homeowner a maintenance task...which it sounds like you don't. We tried it on one job and it turned into a big mess. Every few weeks in the fall the homeowner wound up having to go out to the daylighted pipe and pull the grate off, clean it, and reinstall it. Was really a nightmare. By leaving the grate off it allowed the debris to exit the pipe.

We even installed drain basins at certain intervals to help collect the debris. It does help, but the homeowner has to remember to pull the grate off and clean the bottom of the basin out. But that is also maintenance. But I'm not sure how to get around that part...maybe its an upsell to the maintenance side of by business.
 
#12 ·
With any new install you have maintenance issues. Whether those issues be with cleaning or sealing the hardscape, maintenance on the joint sand, changing out blown bulbs, cleaning/sealing your new granite countertops, polishing up your new outdoor grill, or making sure your pop up does not become iced/covered over. It's all part of the deal and as long as you explain that to super dad or senora widow you should be covered. it takes all of 2 minutes to check/clear the pop up. Far less time than shoveling your walks or packing your kids up in a car. And like anything else, if you want your project to flourish do the maintenance. Besides, your issue comes to light 2-3 months of the year. The rest of the year pop-ups are more aesthetically pleasing and work just as well as a daylighted pipe sans rodents. Educate your customer and ye shall be set free.
 
#13 · (Edited)
I am not going to tell people how to run their business. But I will state my opinions!!


Life is full of responsibilities.

Change the filter furnace.

Clean the dust out of the air intake from the fridgerator.

Go to the dentist.

Replace the water hoses on the washer machine so they don't crack and burst while you're at the beack on vacation.

Hardscape Projects are NOT cheap. A 200 SF job costs more than a 1500 SF job.

Again, 13 years here without ever installing a pop up!

There is no excuse to add additional maintenance responsibility to your client's life. NO EXCUSE. It's as pathetic as Direct TV installing a satellite dish out of reach on a roof top or on a chimeny without providing a deicer!

For the record, I did not state we will never install a pop up. As last year I did have one job I priced where a pop up was the ONLY option. Fortunately, we did not get the job :)

Folks, your client may be 35 years old and in great shape today. But if your hardscape is properly constructed.......that patio is going to last forever. 12 years later, will you client still be able to get out and tend to the freakin emitter in the snow?

We have a client that does consulting in Europe. He and his wife just returned to MD after being in Europe for 5 weeks. Who would have thawed their emitters on the home while they were away?

What if they go on vacation?

What if they are in the hospital??

CertPro, i'm sorry man, but I completely disagree with you last post. MAny thing in life require maintenance. But man, most things you can plan for. Ok, so you need your chimney cleaned? You simply call the chimney cleaner and he/she will schedule a time. Ok, so you want your pavers sealed?? No problem, it won't matter if they're sealed tomorrow or 47 days later. Your home's air conditioner needs routine service? Again, no sweat (no pun intended!), if it's only maintenance it doesn'tmatter if the tech comes out 3 days or 16 days later.

But see, CertPro - the weather / water drainage isn't something you can plan for, as you can with most of life's maintenance responsibilities. To think it's good business to justify sending a home owner out to thaw your emitters, when you, the competent contractor could have provided better expertise is deplorable :)

Something else -

Q: When does snow melt?
A: During the day, usually about an hr after the sun comes up

Q: Where are most home owners during the day?
A: At work

Q: What does a client do after they arrive home in the at 6 pm on a dark winter evening?
A: They check their mail and they go straight from the car and inside their house and turn on the news.

They don't look at their drains! they don't look at their down spouts! They're never going to notice the ice hanging over the fronts on their gutters! THEY'RE NOT!! THEY'RE NOT!! THEY'RE NOT!!

Ya know, I always say "we done this and we done that for 10 yrs and never had a problem". Ok, well how do I know that maybe there is a problem or 2 or 3 out there? There very well could be some problems with our work. And it could very well be that the client simply isn't aware that there is a problem. Thus it hasn't been brought to my attention!

Folks, again, do things how you see fit. But use a little common sense. People's life's change. Don't let the work you do add additional BURDEN or stress to their life.





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#15 ·
However, at a minimum at least make sure they are installed correctly. When/if we use the pop-up emitters we make sure to drill a hole (if one isn't already present) on the 90 elbow to the pop-up. At the spot that the pop-up emitter is located we auger a 36" wide by about a 36" deep hole (below the actual elbow). That gets backfilled with filter fabric and 3/4" clean stone. That way any excess water in the pipe is able to "trickle" out of the pipe. :
This is the correct way, especially in areas that have frost in the ground. I have to go deeper than 36" though. Most subdivisions around here require pop-ups. They won't let you put downspouts in the storm sewer.
 
#16 ·
This is the correct way, especially in areas that have frost in the ground. I have to go deeper than 36" though. Most subdivisions around here require pop-ups. They won't let you put downspouts in the storm sewer.
I know, we even need permits to daylight pipes through the curbing. That's a big no-no without permits. I haven't done it yet...but...I probablly could avoid the permit by placing the pop-up right before the curbing...might be a pain to get the stone next to the curbing though...hummnnnn.

I guess one could argue that township plow trucks pushing snow to the curb blocks a daylighted pipe as much as a pop-up would with a few inches of snow on top of it.
 
#18 ·
Take a look at the picture and a little visualization will tell you how much water would have to back up before it discharges. This freezes into a soid chunk of ice that doesn't melt before the roof snow does. 10 years and I have never used one of these worthless things.

The other problem that I have is that people create standing water with these all to often. Just connect the conductor lin to a french drain and get rid of the darn water.
 
#20 · (Edited)
Take a look at the picture and a little visualization will tell you how much water would have to back up before it discharges. This freezes into a soid chunk of ice that doesn't melt before the roof snow does. 10 years and I have never used one of these worthless things.

The other problem that I have is that people create standing water with these all to often. Just connect the conductor lin to a french drain and get rid of the darn water.
THANK YOU tatmkr!

A few weeks ago oI had to go to a client's home in the snow/ice to pick up a check that he had left on the back door. There is an iron gate with a latch that you must pass through to get into the backyard. Well....water got inside the latch and froze, therefore I could not unlatch the gate. Had to jump the fence.

It's so simple. If a frickin latch so many feet ABOVE grade was frozen shut, then imagine something set into the ground, buried under snow or a layer of ice. See, I'm a problem solver. I'll go through all the scenerios, all the what if's....until lI come up with a solution that I'm comfortable with. Put a boot over the pop up?? Are you serious! How will that prevent a chunk of ice from forming inside the pipe as TAT had mentioned? Water supply lines running from a well to the house are buried below frost line for a reason! What happens when the mowing company comes in and snips it with the string trimmer a little tiny bit each week?

Folks located in areas where there is this thingie called "winter", that are installing pop-ups instead doing drywells are focused on not loosing a sale. This is where educating your client comes into play. This is where you have to make them aware that yes a properly installed drywell is costly, and you'll also have to explain all the drawbacks of a pop-up.

I was at a seminar a few weeks ago. the speaker said "guys will spend 40 grand on a new truck, but they won't spend $500 on a tool that will increase their production! Ok, well guys will create beautiful hardscapes, perfect mitering of pavers, fancy circles tieing walks into patios, yadda, yadda, yadda - yet they won't set billable time and effort to properly address drainage issues!!!
 
#21 ·
When/if we use the pop-up emitters we make sure to drill a hole (if one isn't already present) on the 90 elbow to the pop-up. At the spot that the pop-up emitter is located we auger a 36" wide by about a 36" deep hole (below the actual elbow). That gets backfilled with filter fabric and 3/4" clean stone. That way any excess water in the pipe is able to "trickle" out of the pipe.
Good Idea

I was thinking about the water in the pipe before you wrote this,,This is also a problem in spring, summer, fall. If you have that elbow on there and the pop up that is a large amount of water still in the pipe. Thats a great breading ground for mosquito's. So draining the water out, not only helps with your freezing issue but will also help with the mosquito control.
that amount of water can breed hundreds if not thousands of mosquito's a week.
 
#22 ·
Sorry but I have to say that we have being using this pop ups for the las couple years and if installed correctly you'll have no problem or even less than just daylighting the pipe, besides it looks better a flow-well would be my best suggestion for gutter tough.
Just because you oppose to something you're not familiar with that doesn't mean it doesn't work and I use the phrase not familiar cause some of you guys have claimed you have never installed one.
 
#23 ·
I totally agree with DVS, pop ups are junk. If I can't day light a drain pipe I put a tee fitting on the end of the line. The bottom of the tee dumps into a french drain. A pipe from the top of the tee goes to the lawn and is capped with a grate that is flush with the soil surface. If rainfall is so heavy that it overwhelms the french drain the excess will flow out through the grate and into the lawn.

If there are trees in the area there must be a screen between the gutter downspout and the drain pipe. Having the down spout spill onto a catch basin grate will do the trick.

The majority of pop ups that I have seen are broken because they stuck in the up position and were run over by a mower. Or they cracked due to frozen water that couldn't drain from the pipe.

PS For all those who are too lazy to dig a deep enough trench, a drain pipe with only one inch of soil on top is almost guaranteed to frost heave out of the ground.
 
#24 ·
Best place for the water to run is on top of the ground. Only since we have been building patios, and retaining walls are there needs for french drains and popups. If it were up to me I would just dig to the footing and tie in to the main line around the home. In our area this goes against by-law rules. So we use the stupid popups, and since all our ground is clay, it won't matter how deep you dig, it just fills up with water anyway and backs up. So in our case the pop ups work best because it just re-routes the water a bit further away from the house and past all the hardscaping we just installed. Yes they are a pain because a lawn mower has the tendency to suck up the valve.
 
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